Should i take a punt

[TwoTankAmin]

Shipping fish is part science and part skill. The goal is for the fish to arrive alive and healthy. When I began shipping fish, I used the USPO. It was both inexpensive and reliable. That was before 911. Not long after things changed some. Priotiy Mail became too slow in most cases. But Express Mails was still usable. That is not longer the case.

We uased to have an excellent mail system in this country until Louis DeJoy was appointed Postmaster General in 2020. Since then the Post Office has become much less reliable for most deliveries. It takes longer for a piece of first class mail to travel a few miles than ever in my lifetime.

I use a good friend UPS account to ship fish these days. They made it hard to be an airport to airport shipper as they require inspection of the facility from where the packages are assembled. For me this would be my home. I breed what I ship in my home. So I no longer ship that way. This despite it's being the fastest and most reliable method. It is also cheaper than FedEx or UPS in most cases.

I am a good shipper of fish but, to this day, I still hate shipping fish. It is one of the reasons I discount the price when a buyer picks up.

 

[Country joe]

Well I've added the bacteria Goop, will do tests tomorrow, instructions state it has to be stocked within 48 hours, so I now have to make my mind up, do I buy local, at Pets At Home, or do I travel to Maidenhead Aquatics? That would be for the Ember Tetra, my other choice would to go to my local fish store who are excellent, fish are always in excellent condition, they don't keep Embers, but have Neon Black Tetras a fish I also like, decisions, decisions.

 

[Ichthys]

You don't need to stock within 48 hours, you just need to add a source of ammonia within 48 hours. The bacteria just need ammonia and nitrite. They don't care where it came from. I would never add livestock without testing the filter first.

 

[Essjay]

I agree. Unless you add a dose of ammonia there is no way you can know whether tank is cycled or not.

 

[Country joe]

Well I added the goop yesterday, at 4.30 pm, did a reading today at 12 noon.
Ammonia .2
Nitrite 0
Ph 7.5
I phoned up Nitroco, who asked if I used fertiliser tablets or liquid fertiliser on my plants which I have done one week ago.
They said the bacteria will be getting ammonia off the fertilisers, and all I can do is test daily, and it should eventually drop, I've not to use ammonia, as the bacteria will be feeding off the fertiliser, they said it can takes days or a couple of weeks to drop, but if it doesn't they recommend being a small maintenance pouch to give it a boost, but hopefully it should not come to that.

 

[Ichthys]

That 0.2 ammonia is deadly at pH 7.5

If you had followed their instructions and added fish, those fish would be dying. Always test first and never rely on a manufacturer's claims. They care about profit, not fish, and not you.

 

[Country joe]

I've had a look at videos on you tube, how to get rid of ammonia but all deal with having fish in your tank, and I have none, but nearly all say, do a water change and add prime,
The employee I talked to from Nitrico said its on their website it does tell you not to use fertiliser tablets, but I must have missed it.

 

[Essjay]

You don't need to do anything to get rid of ammonia except wait. The bacteria and plants will remove it - you just need to wait till the bacteria grow.

I have no idea they mean by bacteria feeding of the fertiliser. Fertiliser usually contains just minerals for the plants.

 

[Country joe]

Thanks Essjay, and wait I will do, should I test every day.?

 

[TwoTankAmin]

That 0.2 ammonia is deadly at pH 7.5

This is absolutely not true if that is a reading for Total Ammonia which is what most test kits measure. If the OP has a test kit which only measure free ammonia (NH3) ignore everything below. The kits will say if the they measure only NH3 or if they measure both NH3 and NH4 which is Total Ammonia.

You can run the numbers on the ammonia calculator on the site below. Unfortunately the OP did not report the temp. or salinity, so I had to assume that salinity was 0 and I ran several temps. I use 0.05 ppm as the NH3 (ammonia content) as the red line. Many fish can handle higher for a while but I use the lower number as it is safe for almost all fish. Some bugs need it lower.
https://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/FreeAmmonia.php

so 0.20 ppm Total Ammonia in 75 pH and 0 salinity:

Temp F- NH3
77 dg - 0.0038 ppm
80 dg - 0.0041 ppm
82 dg - 0.0045 ppm
86 dg - 0.0053 ppm
90 dg - 0.0063 ppm

So none of the above readings is even close to the 0.05 ppm red line. So you do not need to anything about ammonia. In fact when things get that low (0.20) it may be a false reading. One of the things that is known to interfere with ammonia tests is iron in the water. Most plants ferts contain iron.

One way to know you are getting a false reading in the range above 0 to 0.25 ppm is that the reading never changes when you keep testing at decent interavls (12 -24) hours. Intentionally producing this sort of result for days would require you have some very expensive sophisticated lab grade equipment. You would then need a constant digital tester and an automatic ammonia dispenser to add more ammonia to keep the reading constant should the concentration start to drop. And then also something to remove tiny amounts of ammonia in case the concentration should start to rise.

You would also need to have no live plants or algae in the tank as they use ammonium and also something to prevent any bacteria from working. Again, more advanced chemistry than most of us can do.

I also ran what it took to get a 0.05 ppm reading in a 7.5 pH tank at 90F and no salt. The answer is 1.6 ppm of Total Ammonia.
At 80F the answer becomes 2.45 ppm. The toxicicty of any Total ammonia reading increases when the pH and/or the temp. increases. But pH is the much more important factor of the two.

Also re the ferts. Comprehensive ferts contain NPK as well as micro and trace elelments. But, this should not be ammonia. it may be urea or nitrate to produce the N. Other ferts do not contain N or P but may contain K as well as the micro and trace elements. Trpica makes both kinds and have both. Well stocked planted tanks that are not high tech may do fine with no ferts or just the mirco.trace ones. Well planted tanks which are loghtly sctocked will usually need the comprehensive ferts. The label should indicate what the source for the N is.

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

Well I've added the bacteria Goop, will do tests tomorrow, instructions state it has to be stocked within 48 hours, so I now have to make my mind up, do I buy local, at Pets At Home, or do I travel to Maidenhead Aquatics? That would be for the Ember Tetra, my other choice would to go to my local fish store who are excellent, fish are always in excellent condition, they don't keep Embers, but have Neon Black Tetras a fish I also like, decisions, decisions.

I agree about testing before and after adding fish for the first time, and not just trusting manufacturer's claims.

As for choice of store, I personally have yet to see a PaH that would ever buy fish from. They're generally "better" in terms of animal care for furry mammals, and dubious at the very best when it comes to sourcing fish and reptiles... I wouldn't trust their sourcing for any animal, lets just say that.

Maidenhead Aquatics is usually slightly better, although plenty of the fish will also be cheaply farmed abroad and shipped over, and likely from the same sources as PaH. But each store and shipment will be hit or miss.. depends on whether the staff are genuinely good and knowledgeable, and I'd still not recommend automatically trusting store fish, products, or advice - has to be assessed in general, and the fish examined yourself on the day you go. They're less likely to have obviously diseased and dying fish on display, if they get a bad shipment, I think most keep them out back until they've either recovered or passed away.

But that doesn't mean they're disease free and healthy, still need to examine for yourself. When you visited, did you check out the whole fish section? Did the fish appear healthy and the tanks and store look clean and decently maintained? Lots of dead or dying fish is a problem, spotting one or two that have died is pretty normal and not necessarily the stores/fish health, since shipping is rough and some losses are expected. But if a lot of dead and dying fish, and tanks of fish covered in ich, deformed, all fin clamped, and generally looking sickly and weak, then avoid that store.


What about your local fish store? On the whole, privately owned local fish stores are better than the chains, and it's good overall to support your local fish store when you can, if they're a decent store, and build relationships by getting to know the people there. It's hard for small businesses like this to compete against both the internet, and those big chains, but make very little profit, and more and more of them are closing down because of the above factors, and the hobby not being as popular as it used to be, so less demand. Not all LFS's are good, and you still have to do the same checks as above, and might well wind up with fish from the same sources as above.

Why not ask whether the LFS is planning to get any ember tetras in soon? Or whether they'd be willing to order and reserve some for you in their next shipment? They're a popular fish that they'd likely often order anyway, and will sell out fast since they're tiny, appealing, and suitable for so many tanks - which might be why you didn't find any on the day! But stocks will change, and most places will order something in you request, especially something popular they know they can sell easily. If they can, and the store is generally decent, that's what I would do. Then examine the fish on the day you go, and only buy them if they're healthy and you're happy with them.

 

[Country joe]

No they are not, and won't order, they say they have to order at least 100.
Well, I did a test today, ammonia is nil.
Nitrite nill, Ph 7.5.
I phoned nitroco, who told me I can now add fish, the reason I phoned was to ask how many, I was thinking about 6, but they said I can now stock it fully, do you think this is correct

 

[Essjay]

Just because the tank can remove 0.2 ppm ammonia in 24 hours does not mean it can remove the ammonia made by a tankful of fish as soon as they produce it. I would still add a 3 ppm dose of ammonia to check before adding fish.

Ignore what Tropco says, they seem to be very prejudiced against adding ammonia, but unless you check whether the tank can cope with fish you may well find yourself doing a fish-in cycle.

 

[Country joe]

Just because the tank can remove 0.2 ppm ammonia in 24 hours does not mean it can remove the ammonia made by a tankful of fish as soon as they produce it. I would still add a 3 ppm dose of ammonia to check before adding fish.

Ignore what Tropco says, they seem to be very prejudiced against adding ammonia, but unless you check whether the tank can cope with fish you may well find yourself doing a fish-in

Just because the tank can remove 0.2 ppm ammonia in 24 hours does not mean it can remove the ammonia made by a tankful of fish as soon as they produce it. I would still add a 3 ppm dose of ammonia to check before adding fish.

Ignore what Tropco says, they seem to be very prejudiced against adding ammonia, but unless you check whether the tank can cope with fish you may well find yourself doing a fish-in cycle.

Thanks how many drops of ammonia should I add for a 70 litre tank.

 

[Essjay]

It's Dr Tim's ammonium chloride isn't it?

Take off 10% volume for decor, so that's 63 litres or 13.9 US gallons
If the bottle says 4 drops per gallon, you need 4 x 13.9 = 55.6 drops. I'd use maybe 50 drops.

If the bottle gives a different number of drops per gallon, you'll need a different number of drops.