Oh Dear It Is Raining Cories In California

[jollysue]

I have just reserved 6 x 3 different long fins from aquaticangels/Chas. Epperson. I contacted him about adding some long fin albino C. paleatus to my existing ones from aquariaman. He has some growing up now, but they are not ready to ship. Then he emailed me back and asked if I would be interested in some longfin pandas? So I put a reserve on 6 long fin pandas and 6 each of regular and albino sailfin peppers.

Where oh where will the grow out tanks go--let alone the breeding tanks?

 

[Barracuda518]

Long fin C. panda?

 

[Gnatfish]

Lol, who needs a bed, tv, kitchen, bathroom. They can go there

I've never heard of long finned cories, you gonna take pics?

 

[PC1963]

Well new speices out every other day, cories love to breed and cross breed that what happened.

I never see or hear about the Panda long fin from anyone or wild cought, they must be cross breed or tank raise breed.

Need to see picture, please asking the seller to post pictures so veryone can see

 

[Sp00ky]

i have some long-fin bronze aeneus. But young to breed yet, but entertaining none the less

 

[jollysue]

Yes these are specially tank bred. This breeder has a special interest in long fins. He gets some flack for it, I suppose. But I am delighted that he has offered them to me at a good price.

I am not a purist. I love Tennesee Walking Horses, quarter horses, Lipitzaners (I don't have a clue how to spell it) and nectarines and oh so many wonderful cross bred and interbred things.

I have the albino sailfin (as he calls them) C. palaetus. Now I will have some new blood to inject. And the regular sailfin peppers and these new and for now quite rare pandas. He said they were bred by another Chinese fellow. Their fins are just a little elongated when young and continue to get longer as they mature, unlike the long fins we are used to. He said the fins are only about an inch now. But an inch on a panda is quite a length.

I will ask for a pic. I told him I outed him so he can just as well come along and help the debate. I lurve a good natured debate.

I will post a pic of my albino sailfin peppers soon again now they are older. I have fry from the peppers I have and more to come as soon as I get set up better.

If I didn't say, Inchworm recommended Chas. Epperson/AquaticAngel to me as a long fin source. I hunted him out on AB when Barracuda pestered me with those gorgeous Weitzmani. So, Spooky, we must blame Barracuda!

Just in case I was not clear. These pandas are not cross bred; they are tank bred for the long fins.

 

[Barracuda518]

I have seen the long finned C. aeneus, but Im not so sure about a long finned C. panda

 

[Gnatfish]

These pandas are not cross bred; they are tank bred for the long fins.

I'm quite new to all this. Whats the difference?

 

[jollysue]

As I understand the fundamentals:

A cross breed crosses two different cory species--say my C. aeneus with my C. Paleatus to get a different species. But a Cory species that is bred within the species for certain qualities would be bred repeatedly to cories within it's species with certain desired attributes. The long fin aeneus for instance have been bred repeatedly with C aeneus that have long fins. With each spawn the fry with the longest fins are selected out and bred, then their fry are selected for long fins and bred, etc.

The quarter horse as I remember was a cross with the Arabian and the thoroughbred (a speciality breed in itself.) The Tennessee walking horse was a happenstance of a horse that was just special. His later breedings were selected for those special qualities. (I am not an expert here and may have some fact wrong.)

What pc193 suggests is that cories are themselves the product of lots of cross breeding and interfamily breeding. Who knows what the first cory looked like. That is the view I have, I believe.

I cannot really speak for the purist, but I understand that they disapprove of mixing species or breeding for certain unusual qualities. It doesn't follow for me because the husbandman has always managed their stock and bred them for certain qualities.

I am a purist in the sense that I like my wilds unspoild. I miss the Lake Tahoe of my youth which was clear and free of algae and the ability to get away from the sound of autos and airplanes.

 

[Gnatfish]

Ahh i see. Thanks for clearing that up!

 

[Barracuda518]

As I understand the fundamentals:

A cross breed crosses two different cory species--say my C. aeneus with my C. Paleatus to get a different species. But a Cory species that is bred within the species for certain qualities would be bred repeatedly to cories within it's species with certain desired attributes. The long fin aeneus for instance have been bred repeatedly with C aeneus that have long fins. With each spawn the fry with the longest fins are selected out and bred, then their fry are selected for long fins and bred, etc.

The quarter horse as I remember was a cross with the Arabian and the thoroughbred (a speciality breed in itself.) The Tennessee walking horse was a happenstance of a horse that was just special. His later breedings were selected for those special qualities. (I am not an expert here and may have some fact wrong.)

What pc193 suggests is that cories are themselves the product of lots of cross breeding and interfamily breeding. Who knows what the first cory looked like. That is the view I have, I believe.

I cannot really speak for the purist, but I understand that they disapprove of mixing species or breeding for certain unusual qualities. It doesn't follow for me because the husbandman has always managed their stock and bred them for certain qualities.

I am a purist in the sense that I like my wilds unspoild. I miss the Lake Tahoe of my youth which was clear and free of algae and the ability to get away from the sound of autos and airplanes.

I am just trying to figure this out. C. panda are not naturally long finned. Something has to be done to them to make them long finned. What are they doing to these fish to make them long finned? I have seen the long finned albinos and peppereds, but this is the first Ive heard of a "long finned" C. panda. Im just trying to learn, so please forgive me...

 

[Coryman]

I feel I have to have my two penny worth on the subject of these so-called sail/long finned Corys. Basically they are mutants, in as much as they have been altered by man interfering with their genes. All these fish have emanated from the Czech Republic, where a lot of hormone induced breeding is taking place and like anything that is forced there are always side effects. They started with C. paleatus, C. aeneus albino and the long finned ancistrus, now it looks like they are messing up another perfectly good species. These fish are NOT natural, nor are they line bred.

I am not a purist in that I do like albino's but here again with some species of Cory this they are creating albinos buy their forced breeding methods. There are about 8 species of Cory that I know that have produced albinos, but only the odd one or two. So anyone knowing a little about genetics would be able to produce a albino strain, but the long finned would take many many years to achieve something on the lines that we see from the Czech Republic.

There was even a "balloon" Cory around for a while, this was an inbred throw back with a stunted and bent spine, there evolved because of too much in breeding. These were the sort of thing any respecting breeder would cull.

If you want long finned Corys there are a number of naturally long finned species without the need to mutilate a perfectly good one. C. steindachneri; C. sp. "misiones" S. macropterus and C113 to name but 4. In actual fact there is a species from Argentina closely related to C. paleatus that has a very long dorsal fin, which just keeps growing as the fish ages.

There are 153 species of Corydoras, 19 species of Aspidoras, 6 species of Scleromystax and 3 species of brochis, added to these there are approximately 130 c-numbers, a grand total of 311 species of corydoradinae. Surly there is enough variety there to choose from without perpetuating the the expansion of mutant fish in the hobby.

Sorry if I have gotten on my soap box, but it was something that I feel needed saying.

Ian

C. sp "Miseones"

S. sp C113

S. macropterus

 

[Barracuda518]

I feel I have to have my two penny worth on the subject of these so-called sail/long finned Corys. Basically they are mutants, in as much as they have been altered by man interfering with their genes. All these fish have emanated from the Czech Republic, where a lot of hormone induced breeding is taking place and like anything that is forced there are always side effects. They started with C. paleatus, C. aeneus albino and the long finned ancistrus, now it looks like they are messing up another perfectly good species. These fish are NOT natural, nor are they line bred.

I am not a purist in that I do like albino's but here again with some species of Cory this they are creating albinos buy their forced breeding methods. There are about 8 species of Cory that I know that have produced albinos, but only the odd one or two. So anyone knowing a little about genetics would be able to produce a albino strain, but the long finned would take many many years to achieve something on the lines that we see from the Czech Republic.

There was even a "balloon" Cory around for a while, this was an inbred throw back with a stunted and bent spine, there evolved because of too much in breeding. These were the sort of thing any respecting breeder would cull.

If you want long finned Corys there are a number of naturally long finned species without the need to mutilate a perfectly good one. C. steindachneri; C. sp. "misiones" S. macropterus and C113 to name but 4. In actual fact there is a species from Argentina closely related to C. paleatus that has a very long dorsal fin, which just keeps growing as the fish ages.

There are 153 species of Corydoras, 19 species of Aspidoras, 6 species of Scleromystax and 3 species of brochis, added to these there are approximately 130 c-numbers, a grand total of 311 species of corydoradinae. Surly there is enough variety there to choose from without perpetuating the the expansion of mutant fish in the hobby.

Sorry if I have gotten on my soap box, but it was something that I feel needed saying.

Ian

C. sp "Miseones"

S. sp C113

S. macropterus

Thats where I was going with it. I didnt think they were natural...

 

[paulf]

Thats where I was going with it. I didnt think they were natural...

Obviously

 

[jollysue]

Of course I am not very knowledgable about this. I know nothing about the Czech Republic fish. I know everytime I get a syno--even though it is wild caught someone hollers"Czech Republic" at me!

Just on an elementary level of husbandry: Selective breeding will produce different qualities and those qualities can be enhanced by selective breeding. My uncle had Nectarines the size of grapefruit by selectively pollenating and pruning.

I am almost certain that the beautiful Veil Tail Bettas were not like that in the wild. They were selectively bred over centuries to develop those handsome tails. New tail types and colors are developed constantly in the Betta breeding world with no help from hormones or the Czech Republic. A quality is seen in a Betta that is desirable and then is selectively bred to continue to enhance that quality.

I doubt those delicate fancy guppies that are so happily kept by fish hobbyists are anything like their wild ancestors. I just was to appistodave's web site admiring a gorgeous cockatoo that has been developed. Compare my orange flash fellow with a wild counterpart, and they are very different fellows. The fins have been enhanced in shape and color by "selective breeding."

I think that inferring that someone is not self respecting because they see things differently is unnecessary. In a discussion it is considered hitting below the belt and does not contribute to understanding. I know several respected hobbyists that do not cull, although they probably would not selectively breed a spine deformity.

There is a difference in my mind between a deformity and a naturally occurring attribute that is selectively bred. Nature selectively breeds constantly. In the wild there are frogs that started at one end of a pond and, as each new generation found a new niche and prospered, selective qualities were bred by survival within each niche. By the time the chain reached back around the pond to the starting place, the frogs could no longer interbreed. (I remember this from my high school biology back in the mid 1950's, so nothing new.)

What may be a deformity in one environment, can be an asset in another.

My long fin peppers are healthy and happy. They act like peppers and breed happily. I am not a bit ashamed that I have them. Nor do I think I am unethical for choosing to keep them and to breed them. They are not suited for the wild, but they are very suited for my tank.

Thoroughbred horses are not suited for the wild either, but I delight in their beauty. They are bred to run. They are deformed compared to the plow horse. Neither is at all like their dinky ancestor.

We have a "Hybrid" forum where hobbyists that I highly respect discuss hybrid fish. Very respected hobbyists have differences of opinion. I think we should discuss these differences for our own enlightenment not to make facts of opinions. I think people can have differences of opinion. The "purist" vs the "selective breeder" is an age old debate.

I like my hybrid wheat, beef and yorkie/dachsund dog and would not like to return to the wild stuff.

Once more: I think we can discuss and share perspectives w/o trying to push "hot buttons" which prove nothing and change nothing and only inflame passions. Discussion imo improves the hobby and gives reasoned choices. Inflamitory arguments create hard feelings and hamper learned discussion. I am happy to hear your views, Ian, and have you share them in this thread. I was actually inviting a discussion. Pretty nice "natural" fish BTW