Oh Dear It Is Raining Cories In California

[Gnatfish]

I don't think the problem is selective breeding. I thought selective breeding was when they chose certain characteristics that they liked in one fish and bred those to create offspring with the good characteristics.

I got the impression that these long finned species were cross bred with something else or force bred with hormones to produce the long fins, becasue these species aren't naturally long finned. So the product is unnatural, and ruining a perfectly good species. Well i think thats whats going on But really i could be talking a load of twaddle and just embarrased myself in front of Ian Fuller It's scary to think i just read one of his articles in an old magazine from like 2000 and now he's on here.

These fish are NOT natural, nor are they line bred.

 

[jollysue]

Are albinos and long finned fish (captive bred varieties) as we usually see them here force bred with hormones?

My understanding is that they have been bred to emphasize a variation found in a fish. They are not unnatural or Frankenstein's monsters. They are selectively bred for a characteristic found in one or a batch of fish. My understanding is that my supplier finds a natural fish with an interesting variation. He breeds that or those fish to emphasize that characteristic.

The panda he is passing on to me from another source. I am not yet clear as to the methods used with it. But the fish I went to him to get, the long finned peppers--both albino and regular, are the product of his selective breeding efforts. He found fish with certain characteristics and bred them to emphasize those characteristics, as I understand it.

I wanted to get some albino long fin peppers from a second source to stengthen the line I offer. I am not ashamed of this. I will try to take pictures tonight of my peppers and post them with the pic I have of the new ones I am getting. They are slightly different. I see differences in the same species all the time coming from the wild. Really look at the Pulchers and their variations. I see regular pandas of differing adult sizes. Mine are very small--probably less than 1.5 inches w/o the tail.

Long fin albino peppers are very common now. I see several sources on AquaBid. I think it is more of a shame to excoriate an honest man because his calling is different than to breed captive fish for long fins. If I find that he is poking fish with needles or in some way treating them cruelly deliberately, I will appologize, but until then I don't think he should be excluded from the fishy community and treated disrespectfully on "The Friendliest Forums Around."

I frankly have been embarrassed and a little surprised at the thinly veiled attitude toward him.

 

[Gnatfish]

...I thought Ian Fuller explain how its unnatural in this post.....

He states quite clearly its not line breeding. I presume line breeding is what your talking about?

 

[jollysue]

As far as I know these peppers are not force bred with hormones. How many times and how many ways do I have to say there is a difference between selective breeding and forced breeding with hormones, milking the fish and artificially mixing eggs and milt? Ian's post mixes it all together, making no difference between them.

I am just addressing one issue here not all of them. Lets just all get on the same page. Please define line breeding for me.

<<I doubt Ian needs a defender, she muttered as she went back to other things to do with fish.>>

Ok, here's the thing, like Breeze said, we are artificially inseminating humans now. We are planting artificially inseminated eggs in women so they can have "natural" children. Some think that is the devil's work. I don't at this time. I don't go around yelling at doctors and women who do it. Most of us don't. We can discuss the pros and cons, but let's stay in reality here.

 

[Gnatfish]

How many times and how many ways do I have to say there is a difference between selective breeding and forced breeding with hoirmones

I don't see why you have to keep saying it because I'm not really talking about that. I'm saying that Ian's post stated that it is selective breeding, and it's people interfering with their genes. But people seemed to forget what he said...

Please define line breeding for me.

I thought it was the same as selective breeding. Breeding for a characteristic...But i am probably stupid. Care to enlighten me?

I doubt Ian needs a defender, she muttered as she went back to other things to do with fish.

I'm not defending him, but people seemed to forget what he said...

He is in my words "a clever kinda guy" so he doesn't need defending. I am merely reinstating the idea.

Ok, here's the thing, like Breeze said, we are artificially inseminating humans now. We are planting artificially inseminated eggs in women so they can have "natural" children. Some think that is the devil's work. I don't at this time. I don't go around yelling at doctors and women who do it. Most of us don't. We can discuss the pros and cons, but let's stay in reality here.

I am not totally familiar with what goes on. But do they mess around so the babies have elf ears?

 

[OohFeeshy]

Personally, I don't see the problem. As well as creating new strains of cory, in the process we're learning more about the genetics of cories. And besdies which, isn't this how evolution happens? The best of each generation breed to produce better offspring. Its just that in this case, humans as opposed to the fickle finger of fate picks prospective parents, and the 'best' trait is long fins as opposed to ability to synthesise oxygen or whatever. And as for use of hormones, a vast amount of common fish are bred through use of hormones. Koi and clown loaches to name but a few. Cories breed readily, it's unlikely they're going to use money on hormones for fish that breed that easily. And even if they do, its not unique amongst fish farming. Most fish have been line bred, via hormones or whatever, to enahnce their appearance. Very few captive bred fish resemble their wild counterparts- colour forms of gourami and betta, albinos of any type, most livebearers... Change is happening all the time- you can't pick and choose which species you target when its happening to them all.

 

[jollysue]

I'm sorry, gnatfish, I got frustrated and snapped at you. That was not fair. This thread was about the fish I am getting for my aquariums, firstly. I am not Frankenstien, and I do not intend to mistreat my fish. The person I am getting them from seems nice, and he was recommended by Inchworm as a good breeder with good fish. I say again that I looked him up to get a second long fin albino pepper group to breed with mine.

I am always up for a discussion on the pros and cons of good fish keeping and common civility in those discussions. My impression of what Ian said was that the fish that my supplier is suppling is out of some kind of Czech fish breeding thing doing monstrous things. By implication he said that my fish could not have been bred naturally. I don't know all the particulars, but I am not and, I doubt, my supplier are doing what Ian said.

Many people have long fin and albino fish on this board. I don't know their original source. Where did Spooky get his long fins? I don't know, but all the politics and shouting is not going to change that I and others like these fish and plan to breed them.

We have a difference of opinion. I am not about to try to justify something that someone else thinks is morally wrong. But neither do I think it is right to impose personal opinions on others by intimidation. That is my real point and I don't want to get dragged into an argument on some absolute morality of fish breeding. It was my understanding though that Ian is against breeding selectively for certain characteristics that change the "natural" appearance of the fish. If I am mistaken in my understanding, let him correct me and make it clear what he is for and against.

 

[Gnatfish]

I'll stop speaking on this subject. I am out of my depth and all i was trying to say was to reiterate what Ian said.

I don't know how they came about (however i am interested). I thought that becasue they are not normally long finned at all, then something else must of happened to create these long finned cories, that is different to selective breeding. I don't see anything wrong with selective breeding, it happens all the time. I'm not sure what i think about hybrids, they happen in the wild so why is it different here. I don't think messing with the genetics of animals is right, but i dont really know.

I'm interested to finding out more about loads of thing about fish, and i am new and learning so my jugdement is probably not worth saying at all.

If i've said anything too stupid i apologise.

 

[jollysue]

Hey! You have as much right to an opinion here as anyone. Hybridization is a time honored debate with advocates on all sides. I am in the group that says "healthy fish!" is what counts.

You might like to browse the Hybrids forum just to get a look at those folks. I personally have not hybridized any fish, and I don't have plans too. That is not to say that I would not put it on my plate at some later time.

Well, I am way past my bed time, and I have long work nights, so I leave you all to it.

 

[DarkEntity]

Its getting ridiculous, geneticists should leave stuff alone that isnt broke!

Let them mess about with diseases, usefull stuff, why they need to engineer pink versions of this, long eared versions of that ill never know

rant over!

 

[jollysue]

I think you have the wrong thread here, Dark Entity. You want the dyed Cory thread. No one said anything about cloning Coreys. That is a whole new kettle of fish, so to speak. My son is a biogenetic engineer, but he doesn't clone fish!!!

I suppose you hate VTs, Deltas, Half Moons, Super Deltas, Crown Tails, and our beloved Plakad now being bred for the CT, HM, Delta, Super Delta, and a myriad of other tail types, and you won't own one. You also hate all but the turquoise and dark red coloring of wild Betta. If you would or do own one, then there is the fatal flaw of hypocracy in your reasoning, DarkEntity.

Later I will post a pic of a naturally occuring pink Cory with a long red dorsal fin.

 

[14gtr14]

hell, people arer trying to do it with there own babies now! There are much bigger issues than selectively bred fish!

Breeze, this made me laugh!

Humans are not selectively bred! What you are talking about is genetic engineering, which is a completely different process and area of biology"

Selectively breeding a human would be somone wanting a blue-eyed, tall human. They would maybe get a male with blue eyes and a female that's tall. They have a child and it's a blue-eyed tall baby....this is incredibly simplified, some important details missed, but you get the picture.

jollysue, I've got to say I'm against the whole long-finned thing, it doesn't just affect the fishes looks, it makes it harder for them to swim and the fish is more suscepticle to fin tears and nips. Also I feel as a part of this world we have a right to try and preserve it (as we have almost destroyed it) and it's natural inhabitants.

"My understanding is that they have been bred to emphasize a variation found in a fish. They are not unnatural or Frankenstein's monsters. They are selectively bred for a characteristic found in one or a batch of fish. My understanding is that my supplier finds a natural fish with an interesting variation. He breeds that or those fish to emphasize that characteristic."

These fish may occur naturally, but due to natural selection, and selection pressures, then they would shortly die off. The only reason they are surviving is due to us breeding-rebreeding them and our care. They just wouldn't survive in the wild.

Greg

 

[jollysue]

Breeze isn't wrong, people are approaching genetic engineering with humans. They do do it partially when they match sperm donors and eggs donors, mix them in a dish and plant the fertilized egg in a womb: let alone the beginnings of real genetic manipulation.

Still, 14qtr14, your option is to not get the fish. My option is to get them. My little guys are swimming just fine and breeding little guys, too. So you can expect more to come.

My little ones are in my aquarium not the wild, just as yours are. I suppose you don't use medications or any of the things that interfere with natural selection--like keeping species only tanks with no preditors. If you all are so adamant about saving the wilds, then stop spending your money on tanks and the hobby and spend it on preserving a piece of the wild. Don't put them in aquariums, because that will change them, just as OhhFreshy said. It is a given in science that the very act of watching changes the out come.

If they died off fom being their wild environment, how did my breeder get them to selectively breed them?

Tell the Betta keepers that they must stop keeping VTs because their fins can tear. It will be a wasted breath.

 

[jollysue]

Here are pics of my present along fin albino peppers who are busy spawning daily:

Here are the long fins I am getting from Charles:

The albino sail fin pepper

The regular color sail fin pepper

 

[raptorrex]

Here are pics of my present along fin albino peppers who are busy spawning daily:

Here are the long fins I am getting from Charles:

The albino sail fin pepper

The regular color sail fin pepper

well im sorry but these look like someone got the parts mixed up when they were made!.

selective breeding has given us all the animals, we keep as a race, even our staple foods are selectively developed. but when it gets to human vanity, it has also given us, dogs that cant eat unless their food is lifted off the floor(Great Dane), that cant breath (pug, most boxers), wolf derivatives, who's backs collapse, and cats and dogs with no fur. and all this was done by people who claim to be dog and cat lovers!!!!