New 25L Tank

[Narz]

I just want to check - Im not sure if angel fish are the same all over the world but half of the info Im getting is that they will only grow a small amount and then the other half is saying 1 foot. Looking at the ones in my tank now - they are tiny - I really cant imagine them growing that big!!

I may sound stupid for the above - but I am a beginner and Im only asking because I really dont want to take them back unnecessarily.. Especially since reading up on all of the cycling posts - although I havent had to spend as long as some of you - all my numbers seem to be where they should be - so I am confused as to why I need to start from scratch.

Also would like to point out that no fish have died since the lady told me the water was perfect - I was just nervous as the angelfish werent really active like they were for the first hour or 2. But I have since read online on a number of pages that angelfish arent massively active and do like to sit near the heater and filter - but as they get bigger can become aggressive (or will become aggressive)..

Dont get me wrong - I really want to do right by the fish - but I would rather fix the problems at home and get them happy at my house rather than take them back where they will surely get sold to someone else who will find themselves in the exact same position that I am in! And thats not fair on the fish..

So I really want to know what it is about my numbers (sitting above - but remember they were my 2nd round where she gave me some things to do to fix the levels and then today said they were perfect but I didnt get the sheet) that isnt right so I can try to fix them.

Thanks again for all comments so far and comments to come - you have all been very helpful - I just want to get to the bottom of it all though..

 

[librarygirl]

I just want to check - Im not sure if angel fish are the same all over the world but half of the info Im getting is that they will only grow a small amount and then the other half is saying 1 foot. Looking at the ones in my tank now - they are tiny - I really cant imagine them growing that big!!

I may sound stupid for the above - but I am a beginner and Im only asking because I really dont want to take them back unnecessarily.. Especially since reading up on all of the cycling posts - although I havent had to spend as long as some of you - all my numbers seem to be where they should be - so I am confused as to why I need to start from scratch.

Also would like to point out that no fish have died since the lady told me the water was perfect - I was just nervous as the angelfish werent really active like they were for the first hour or 2. But I have since read online on a number of pages that angelfish arent massively active and do like to sit near the heater and filter - but as they get bigger can become aggressive (or will become aggressive)..

Dont get me wrong - I really want to do right by the fish - but I would rather fix the problems at home and get them happy at my house rather than take them back where they will surely get sold to someone else who will find themselves in the exact same position that I am in! And thats not fair on the fish..

So I really want to know what it is about my numbers (sitting above - but remember they were my 2nd round where she gave me some things to do to fix the levels and then today said they were perfect but I didnt get the sheet) that isnt right so I can try to fix them.

Thanks again for all comments so far and comments to come - you have all been very helpful - I just want to get to the bottom of it all though..

Hi!

YOur numbers are OK now because the tank hasn't begun to cycle yet. Your tank is cycled when ammonia is 0, nitrites are 0, and you have nitrates. With fish, this could take months. Your ammonia will start to rise (b/c fish waste and extra fish food, etc, = ammonia) and you need your own test kiit to monitor these levels every day, if ammonia gets above 0.25 you need to do a water change b/c it's dangerous to the fish. Next step is your nitrItes will start to rise -- again dangerous for fish so youll need ot monitor these numbers and do water changes. This process could take weeks and it will bea lot of work for you and a lot of worrying and a lot of stress on the fish.

When I started out I trusted the lfs too and got bad advice and fish before my tank was ready. Even though I tested every day and changed water 1-2x per day and tested every day, my fish died after a month. I'm now doing a fishless cycle. I highly suggest you return all of your fish and do a fishless cycle. Cycles with fish can be done but they aren't fair to the fish and they are not at all enjoyable for you. You wont' be abl eto enjoy your tank or the fish. Once the cycle is done and you can safely get fish, you'll then be able to enjoy them more and only change water once per week.

Please take the fish back. Good luck.

 

[This Old Spouse]

I just want to check - Im not sure if angel fish are the same all over the world but half of the info Im getting is that they will only grow a small amount and then the other half is saying 1 foot. Looking at the ones in my tank now - they are tiny - I really cant imagine them growing that big!!

I may sound stupid for the above - but I am a beginner and Im only asking because I really dont want to take them back unnecessarily.. Especially since reading up on all of the cycling posts - although I havent had to spend as long as some of you - all my numbers seem to be where they should be - so I am confused as to why I need to start from scratch.

Also would like to point out that no fish have died since the lady told me the water was perfect - I was just nervous as the angelfish werent really active like they were for the first hour or 2. But I have since read online on a number of pages that angelfish arent massively active and do like to sit near the heater and filter - but as they get bigger can become aggressive (or will become aggressive)..

Dont get me wrong - I really want to do right by the fish - but I would rather fix the problems at home and get them happy at my house rather than take them back where they will surely get sold to someone else who will find themselves in the exact same position that I am in! And thats not fair on the fish..

So I really want to know what it is about my numbers (sitting above - but remember they were my 2nd round where she gave me some things to do to fix the levels and then today said they were perfect but I didnt get the sheet) that isnt right so I can try to fix them.

Thanks again for all comments so far and comments to come - you have all been very helpful - I just want to get to the bottom of it all though..

Hi!

YOur numbers are OK now because the tank hasn't begun to cycle yet. Your tank is cycled when ammonia is 0, nitrites are 0, and you have nitrates. With fish, this could take months. Your ammonia will start to rise (b/c fish waste and extra fish food, etc, = ammonia) and you need your own test kiit to monitor these levels every day, if ammonia gets above 0.25 you need to do a water change b/c it's dangerous to the fish. Next step is your nitrItes will start to rise -- again dangerous for fish so youll need ot monitor these numbers and do water changes. This process could take weeks and it will bea lot of work for you and a lot of worrying and a lot of stress on the fish.

When I started out I trusted the lfs too and got bad advice and fish before my tank was ready. Even though I tested every day and changed water 1-2x per day and tested every day, my fish died after a month. I'm now doing a fishless cycle. I highly suggest you return all of your fish and do a fishless cycle. Cycles with fish can be done but they aren't fair to the fish and they are not at all enjoyable for you. You wont' be abl eto enjoy your tank or the fish. Once the cycle is done and you can safely get fish, you'll then be able to enjoy them more and only change water once per week.

Please take the fish back. Good luck.

+1
If you're going to keep these fish, go out and buy a much bigger tank and start to cycle it now using the fishless method described in our beginners section. Then, if they're still alive you can move them over to grow big and strong. They honestly won't do well in the tiny tank you have. They look very small now but will outgrow the tank in no time. After all, you were but a few pounds when you were born, but look at you now!

 

[moochy13]

i promise you those angel fish will die unless you take them back. i myself have an angel that has been stunted from being in a tank too small, which was about 90L. hes now in a 140L, which is still too small, but the damage is done. he should be full size by now, but he will never get there because he spent too long in a tank too small. he will almost certainly die prematurely, because i didnt check what size tank he needed before i brought one. even my stunted one is nearly 8 inches tall. that tank in my sig below, thats the tank. its too small.

never heard of any shop selling mussels, other than a fishmonger or supermarket. i dont know much about then, but i know i wouldnt have brought any, and that there are better ways to keep your tank clean. im assuming these are some sort of freshwater mussel? got a picture of it ?

regardless of your stats, if you leave the tank as it is, because you think its ready, the waste in the water will build up far quicker than the bacteria that deal with it. for the fish it will be swimming round in poison. when the 'cycle' is complete, the bacteria are at a level equal to the waste produced (by fish and waste food) in the tank. this is only up to a certain point where your filter will not physically be able to deal with the waste.

youre worried about the angels going to a worse home - not being harsh, but a 25L or even a 50L is about as bad as it gets for angels. you are limited to small fish, im talking an inch or 2 long, like small tetras, and you wont be able to have active fish that like to swim about all the time.

bottom line - take the fish and mussels back, and dont go back through the shop door until you know what you want, so you dont get blagged off by the shop owner with more crap information. ignore the internet, its a mish mash of ideas from the informed and the unimformed. unfortunately theres no law against making a website full of crap this forum is the best palce to get your info, at least until you find out what specialist websites are favoured. a fishless cycle is the best thing you can do.

 

[Narz]

Right.. Thanks heaps again all..

 

[jnms]

I just want to check - Im not sure if angel fish are the same all over the world but half of the info Im getting is that they will only grow a small amount and then the other half is saying 1 foot. Looking at the ones in my tank now - they are tiny - I really cant imagine them growing that big!!

I may sound stupid for the above - but I am a beginner and Im only asking because I really dont want to take them back unnecessarily.. Especially since reading up on all of the cycling posts - although I havent had to spend as long as some of you - all my numbers seem to be where they should be - so I am confused as to why I need to start from scratch.

Also would like to point out that no fish have died since the lady told me the water was perfect - I was just nervous as the angelfish werent really active like they were for the first hour or 2. But I have since read online on a number of pages that angelfish arent massively active and do like to sit near the heater and filter - but as they get bigger can become aggressive (or will become aggressive)..

Dont get me wrong - I really want to do right by the fish - but I would rather fix the problems at home and get them happy at my house rather than take them back where they will surely get sold to someone else who will find themselves in the exact same position that I am in! And thats not fair on the fish..

So I really want to know what it is about my numbers (sitting above - but remember they were my 2nd round where she gave me some things to do to fix the levels and then today said they were perfect but I didnt get the sheet) that isnt right so I can try to fix them.

Thanks again for all comments so far and comments to come - you have all been very helpful - I just want to get to the bottom of it all though..

Hi!

YOur numbers are OK now because the tank hasn't begun to cycle yet. Your tank is cycled when ammonia is 0, nitrites are 0, and you have nitrates. With fish, this could take months. Your ammonia will start to rise (b/c fish waste and extra fish food, etc, = ammonia) and you need your own test kiit to monitor these levels every day, if ammonia gets above 0.25 you need to do a water change b/c it's dangerous to the fish. Next step is your nitrItes will start to rise -- again dangerous for fish so youll need ot monitor these numbers and do water changes. This process could take weeks and it will bea lot of work for you and a lot of worrying and a lot of stress on the fish.

When I started out I trusted the lfs too and got bad advice and fish before my tank was ready. Even though I tested every day and changed water 1-2x per day and tested every day, my fish died after a month. I'm now doing a fishless cycle. I highly suggest you return all of your fish and do a fishless cycle. Cycles with fish can be done but they aren't fair to the fish and they are not at all enjoyable for you. You wont' be abl eto enjoy your tank or the fish. Once the cycle is done and you can safely get fish, you'll then be able to enjoy them more and only change water once per week.

Please take the fish back. Good luck.

I may have missed something here. But if the OP had ammonia in the tank a while ago - but now has 0.0 ammonia, and 0.0 nitrites, and still hhas fish in the tank which would be producing waste ammonia (which must be getting broken down to 0.0). How is that not cycled?

 

[marieukxx]

No matter how many times you ask you will get the same answer about the angels. My guess is you're gonna ignore the advice to take them back. Fish start out small just like people and grow. To have angels in a 25 litre or even 50 litre is just ridiculous.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

I just want to check - Im not sure if angel fish are the same all over the world but half of the info Im getting is that they will only grow a small amount and then the other half is saying 1 foot. Looking at the ones in my tank now - they are tiny - I really cant imagine them growing that big!!

I may sound stupid for the above - but I am a beginner and Im only asking because I really dont want to take them back unnecessarily.. Especially since reading up on all of the cycling posts - although I havent had to spend as long as some of you - all my numbers seem to be where they should be - so I am confused as to why I need to start from scratch.

Also would like to point out that no fish have died since the lady told me the water was perfect - I was just nervous as the angelfish werent really active like they were for the first hour or 2. But I have since read online on a number of pages that angelfish arent massively active and do like to sit near the heater and filter - but as they get bigger can become aggressive (or will become aggressive)..

Dont get me wrong - I really want to do right by the fish - but I would rather fix the problems at home and get them happy at my house rather than take them back where they will surely get sold to someone else who will find themselves in the exact same position that I am in! And thats not fair on the fish..

So I really want to know what it is about my numbers (sitting above - but remember they were my 2nd round where she gave me some things to do to fix the levels and then today said they were perfect but I didnt get the sheet) that isnt right so I can try to fix them.

Thanks again for all comments so far and comments to come - you have all been very helpful - I just want to get to the bottom of it all though..

A giant oak tree starts out as a tiny acorn... Just because it looks small now doesn't mean that it will stay that way.


If you truly want to keep these fish you need to get a BIGGER tank - MUCH bigger. If you wanted to do what's best for them... you might need to complete it as a fish-in cycle with the bigger tank. The smaller tank isn't cycled anyway, so either way you are cycling with fish. You might as well do it with the larger volume of water, which will give you more time to see the problem before it harms your fish.


I don't want to come off as mean, but right now you are doing everything wrong with your fish. It happens to a lot of fishkeepers in their first experience that they mistakenly follow the misinformation (whether intentional or unintentional) from the LFS. You aren't alone in having that experience. But, if you don't take drastic steps now, the fish will suffer. Being in that small a tank can stunt their growth and you won't know for months or years. The ammonia and nitrite is poisoning your fish. You need to take action as soon as you possibly can.

You probably should be doing 50% (or more) water changes probably on a daily basis right now. Chances are though that your tank isn't big enough to give the angel room to swim during that change. If you go with a bigger tank, a big water change like that would get you more time between needing the next change, first. Second, it would still provide enough room for the angel to swim in the tank while the water level is half as high as usual.


You are learning a lot of stuff, probably at a much faster rate than you ever could have dreamed right now. You have come to a great place where folks share their experiences and help folks who have been given the wrong advice at the LFS. If you follow the advice of the folks here, your fish will probably survive the cycle and you can finally begin to enjoy the hobby. I know it seems very stressful right now. The larger tank would greatly reduce that stress. Returning the fish and completing a fishless cycle (link in sig) will also reduce the stress level dramatically. Granted, you won't have the pretty fish in your tank, but you will have time to RESEARCH fish that can and will live "happily" in your tank.


Sorry if that came off as harsh, I didn't mean it to be. But, I come from the school of thought that honesty is the best policy. The honest truth is that you need to make some major changes right now. Don't feel embarrassed because I would have made the exact same mistakes as you, but I happened to have a bit more time to research before I could even get the tank. I was fortunate to find this place and have been given a bunch of very good advice from many of the same folks who are advising you right now. This is a great hobby, and can be very rewarding. But, that only happens if you take the proper steps - which actually aren't that hard. If not, then you will be mired in frustration and stress, just like you are right now. There are a lot of people here who have taken the same steps as you, but have gotten through it and are now quite successful fishkeepers. You can get there too, but please listen to the advice you are getting from the folks around here. We all mean well, and are trying to help you, even if the thing they are telling you is not what you want to hear.

 

[Narz]

I just want to check - Im not sure if angel fish are the same all over the world but half of the info Im getting is that they will only grow a small amount and then the other half is saying 1 foot. Looking at the ones in my tank now - they are tiny - I really cant imagine them growing that big!!

I may sound stupid for the above - but I am a beginner and Im only asking because I really dont want to take them back unnecessarily.. Especially since reading up on all of the cycling posts - although I havent had to spend as long as some of you - all my numbers seem to be where they should be - so I am confused as to why I need to start from scratch.

Also would like to point out that no fish have died since the lady told me the water was perfect - I was just nervous as the angelfish werent really active like they were for the first hour or 2. But I have since read online on a number of pages that angelfish arent massively active and do like to sit near the heater and filter - but as they get bigger can become aggressive (or will become aggressive)..

Dont get me wrong - I really want to do right by the fish - but I would rather fix the problems at home and get them happy at my house rather than take them back where they will surely get sold to someone else who will find themselves in the exact same position that I am in! And thats not fair on the fish..

So I really want to know what it is about my numbers (sitting above - but remember they were my 2nd round where she gave me some things to do to fix the levels and then today said they were perfect but I didnt get the sheet) that isnt right so I can try to fix them.

Thanks again for all comments so far and comments to come - you have all been very helpful - I just want to get to the bottom of it all though..

Hi!

YOur numbers are OK now because the tank hasn't begun to cycle yet. Your tank is cycled when ammonia is 0, nitrites are 0, and you have nitrates. With fish, this could take months. Your ammonia will start to rise (b/c fish waste and extra fish food, etc, = ammonia) and you need your own test kiit to monitor these levels every day, if ammonia gets above 0.25 you need to do a water change b/c it's dangerous to the fish. Next step is your nitrItes will start to rise -- again dangerous for fish so youll need ot monitor these numbers and do water changes. This process could take weeks and it will bea lot of work for you and a lot of worrying and a lot of stress on the fish.

When I started out I trusted the lfs too and got bad advice and fish before my tank was ready. Even though I tested every day and changed water 1-2x per day and tested every day, my fish died after a month. I'm now doing a fishless cycle. I highly suggest you return all of your fish and do a fishless cycle. Cycles with fish can be done but they aren't fair to the fish and they are not at all enjoyable for you. You wont' be abl eto enjoy your tank or the fish. Once the cycle is done and you can safely get fish, you'll then be able to enjoy them more and only change water once per week.

Please take the fish back. Good luck.

I may have missed something here. But if the OP had ammonia in the tank a while ago - but now has 0.0 ammonia, and 0.0 nitrites, and still hhas fish in the tank which would be producing waste ammonia (which must be getting broken down to 0.0). How is that not cycled?

Yeah that one still hasnt been answered yet - I just keep getting take the fish back - but I already said I would rather go out and buy the right sized tank and get the fish into that as soon as that has had a fishless cycle done. But everyone keeps saying a large one - but I still don't know how large..

And again - I said I would take them back if that was my only option but I want to fix whatever needs fixing without having to take them back. Isnt that a good thing?

I get that I have been given bad advice from 2 different places but I just want to fix it - so if I could understand how having no ammonia and nitrite in the tank and all the other numbers being right too - how is the tank not cycled yet? And in the mean time go out and buy a much larger tank - although it would be helpful to know how large all of you think is large enough.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

I would say at least about 30 U.S. gallons, larger than that would be better though. The tank should be fairly tall, at least 18 inches.

 

[Narz]

ok so at least 120L - and can you tell me if my numbers are all correct when I test them myself today then I should be safe to say that this particular tanks cycle is complete?

 

[eaglesaquarium]

ooo wait I forgot I got a paper with my test results (I just totally forgot and left it in the bag -

so from the top to bottom

Ph - 7
General hardness - 200
Ammonia - 0.25
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - 0

oh and sorry forgot to say that these were my results from last weeks test and today she said that the water was perfect - I just didnt get a piece of paper like this with the results like last time.. I will make sure I ask for one from now on..

Here's the concern I have regarding the tank being "cycled".

If it were cycled, the fish would produce ammonia - which they do. This ammonia is then processed by A-bacs (ammonia processing bacteria: nitrososomonas, etc.) and they will produce nitrite. (Each 1ppm of ammonia produced by the fish will be processed into roughly 2.7ppm nitrite.) Then the N-bacs (nitrite processing bacteria: nitrospira) will process the nitrite into nitrAte. Each 1ppm that goes through the full process will produce roughly 3.6ppm nitrAte. So, if you tank were truly cycled, you would have a zero reading for ammonia (you don't), a zero reading for nitrite (you do), and a non-zero reading for nitrate (you don't). (Even though this was a test from a week ago, there is no way that your tank could have completely cycled in only one week, without the addition of mature media, especially given the lack of any nitrates at all! If you were using the additives this whole time, that will lull you into a false sense of security - which may be what has happened. Those products generally work, as long as you keep adding them, but unfortunately they starve the bacteria you want to have in the tank for a stable environment. That's probably why your results are coming back better than folks believe based on the data we have seen.)


Unfortunately, it seems that your cycle is just beginning rather than just ending. So, you are in a fish-in cycle. That just means you need to test your water regularly, every 12-24 hours. Start by testing more often, as you will have less bacteria processing the toxins in your tank at the beginning. (The bacteria double roughly every 24 hours, but there are a lot of variables involved in that.) You need to do a water change (as big as necessary) anytime your test results show that ammonia OR nitrite is anything other than zero. Your goal is to keep those as low as possible. Zero isn't really possible, but the test kit isn't sensitive enough to measure how much ammonia there really is. You just don't want it at 0.25ppm or above.


So, let's say you test tomorrow and the ammonia is 0.50 ppm, that means you need to do about a 60% water change, or two 50% water changes to bring the level back into the proper range. With a small tank, the ammonia levels will build up faster, but water changes are also much easier to do. Just be sure to replace the water with dechlorinated and temp matched tap water. This will keep your fish alive. This is where the larger tank comes in handy, as I pointed out in a previous post here. The bigger the tank, the greater the dilution of ammonia in the water, which means more time between water changes. Or, you can do more frequent but smaller volume water changes to bring the levels down.


BTW, if you are using the API test kit, be sure to follow the directions EXACTLY as they print it (and perhaps shake and bang the Bottle #2 more than it says to get better results. Without mixing the bottle enough before using it, you can get false zero readings. (I speak from experience. )


I hope this helps to explain some of the things that are confusing you and others regarding your cycle status. All those chemicals are great as a quick fix, but they actually hurt you long term. In the long run, you want a mature bacteria colony (actually multiple) that will be able to handle the ebbs and flows of your bioload. Some days it will go up, some days it will be down... the bacteria will grow and die back as needed to handle it. That should be your goal. Proper fish keeping starts with proper bacteria culturing.



Also a quality resource for angelfish is here. Scroll through a find your particular one... the minimum suggested tank size is listed for most species.

 

[Narz]

ok that makes alot more sense.. I guess I will have to take the fishies back then

 

[eaglesaquarium]

I'm sorry. I think it is for the best though.


If you are serious about getting angelfish, get the bigger tank. Move your media from the filter you have running on the smaller tank over to the bigger filter and complete a fishless cycle (follow the link in my sig). In 1-2 months, you'll be able to go into the fish store knowing with full confidence that you are truly ready for those fish, because not only will you be taking the time to properly prepare the fish, you can also spend that time researching angels more carefully and determining what other fish you want to have with them (neons are a natural food of angels, so generally are a poor choice for housing with them. You'd want a larger tetra variety that is faster and won't appear to be on the menu, and is hardy enough to handle the angels if they pair off for breeding, yet don't become nippy, which is a danger to your angels.)


If you want to keep the smaller tank going, I'd personally stick to very small varieties that only grow to about 1 inch. A small shoal of endler's livebearers although they breed too easily, and you'll eventually be overrun with them, or some of the boraras spp. I really like the boraras merah (phoenix rasbora), or pygmy corydoras. Have a read through this link for small specie options. (Your tank is a little smaller than the 10 gallon, so another option would be a betta and some shrimp.)

 

[mattbleasby]

I fishless cycle can take 4 - 8 weeks. How are you going to have the fish in the tank at the time, I think you need too read the beginners recourse centre again.

I want too say that on behalf of the forum, We are not trying to be harsh or put you off fishkeeping but we are a group of enthusiasts that take the fish's feelings before the owners. Fishkeeping is a tricky job at times. And sometimes drives you crazy, But all in all worth it.

Just save yourself alot of heartache and take the fish back. Then cycle your tank, and in the time its cycling you can re-search all different types of fish and see what you want.

Trust me and the rest of us. Its the best way.