My 20G Setup

[Easy]

Quick background on me: Had a couple small 5-10 gallon tanks when was a kid nothing fancy. Then no I left the hobby until a few years ago. I am currently 34, married with a 3 year old. About 5 years ago my wife came home with a 1 gallon aquarium with a Japanese fighting fish(beta's?). The fish lasted a few months then died, so we went to Petco. They had att the time some small green puffers. WE FELL IN LOVE.. Unfourtanetly we had no idea the 1gallon tank was 50x to small for that kind of fish. Needless to say it died and we were crushed.......back to the store....to get a new tank and new fish. I figured the fish died because a 1 gallon tank ( if you can call it that) is just to small. We ended up with a 10 gallon tank with hang on filter( is that what you call the filters that hang on the edge, have a filter bag inside and it's kinda like a waterfall?) and 3 Baby Black Fin Sharks. I really liked those fish by the way very cool swimming action. I had remembered from my childhood that you had to add a chemical to take out the chlorine so I bought this stuff called Prime. The employee at Petco was also smart enough to briefly explain cycling the tank and sent me home with this stuff called "Cycle" I think that's what it was called I'm all out of it now and can't seem to find it anymore. So I dumped in my chemicals and threw in the fish. They lived happily for a year or 2 before they outgrew the tank. I took them back to the store and picked up a bunch of random Chilids and a new 20gallon tank. Again I basically came home threw my prime and cycle in the water and tossed the fish in. At this point I thought all you had to do was float the bags that the fish come in in the aquarium for a few minutes and that would acclimate them to the tank. LOL.....I had at this point at least gotten a gravel vacuum and would do water changes every so often. The Chilids seemed to be fine health wise but then would fight with each other so much that they would kill each other. When the dominate fish would be removed another would just take its place. This frustrated me so much because of the money and time loss that I just let them fight until only one was left. And we happily kept him alone in there for 3 years before he finally died( I believe of old age ). All I did was do water changes once a month or so adding Cycle and prime to the new water and vacuum the gravel very thoroughly At the same time. I thought I had the water thing down since I hadn't lost any of the Black Fins or Chickids to health.......BOY WAS I WRONG.


I could really use some help now. My current setup:

Same 20 gallon setup. Same filter. We had to move about a week after the Chiclid died so in a sad way it was good timing because it made the move much easier. Since I thought I had this water thing down I just saved about 1/5 of the water in the tank and figured that tat would be enough bacteria in the water if I let it run with no fish for a week. So I added my Prime no cycle as I have run out but figure the bacteria will grow plenty in the next week. I threw out the old filter material because I figured it was old and could use a nice new fresh clean one.LOL........ So after a week I went back to Petco. And picked up my new fish following the Petco guys suggestion of slightly less than 1 inch of fish per gallon. Soooooo I came home with :
1- Cory albino cat 3/4 "
1- Clown Loach 1"
2- male Lyetail Guppies 1"
3- male fancy guppies 1"
2- female fancy guppies 1"
1- black Molly 2"
1- red molly 2"
chemicals: Top Fin bacteria supplement( this was supposed to replace my old Cycle product.)
- API Leaf Zone for my plants.
- I also have always added a half dosage of API aquarium salt
- Seachems Prime

And my first attempt at LIVE plants ( WHOOT! ) .......sorry but can't remember the name of the plants. Supposedly they are easy to grow..... I have 3 different and a really nice piece of driftwood with some hiding places underneath. The clown loach actually found a hole in the driftwood and stayes in there half the day. I put the fish in thinking the water was not only fine but even better than before because I had live plants and the Petco employee said that they will help keep the water and fish healthy. WRONG LOL

Now......... 1 female fancy guppie died first day, then after 1 week I thought it a good idea to just get used to doing a 5% weekly water change. So I did adding Prime and the Top fin bacteria to the new water. Bam! One of the male fancy guppies dies. At this point I start looking for info on fancy guppie online. I learned that I have to many male guppies and not enough females. I also notice that the guppies are picking on the black Molly really bad so I decided to take the black molly back to the store before they killed it. While I was there I picked up 2 more female guppies to try and balance out the aggression. It worked the fish seemed much happier doing there little mating dances all over the place 2nd week I do another 5% water change adding Prime and the Top Fin. Bam I lose one of the new female guppies. 2 days later one of the male Fancy guppies dies, 2 days later another female guppie. So now I am panicked. I go down to Petco and buy a tetra water test strip kit. It is extremely hard to get accurate readings but appeared that my Ph was over 8.5 , KH was maybe 300, chlorine was 0, GH was about 150, Nitrite was hard to read about 1.0-2.0, Nitrate maybe about 20-40. According to the test kit I could fix the PH ,KH&GH And Nitrate levels all with one dose of there product Easy Balance.....seemed like a good idea so I went and bought some. I put in according to label , waited an hour and tested again. PH came way down to about 7-7.5 , KH down to about 120-150' chlorine .5, GH 150, Nitrite .5-1.0, Nitrate 20-30. I figured that did the trick but then the next day I lose another Female guppie, and now today it looks like I am going to lose one of the Lyetail male guppies. He may even be dead by now I need to go look. I am sure he won't survive.

I realize now my biggest mistake was probably throwing out the old filter. I thought I new all about cycling and bacteria but I was wrong I didn't realize that they mostly live in the filter media and not in the water. My tank was not cycled when I added the fish and now I Fear I have messed everything up . Do I need to start over or should I just leave the few fish in there and let the water balance naturally?

Wow that turned out way longer than I thought. I hope I didn't bore everyone to death. Thanks for any knowledge in advance !

SUGGESTIONS WELCOMED!!!!!!!!

 

[slimeneo]

Ask petco for some mature filter media, it'll help you get back to bacteria you need. Read some articles on fish-in cycling, they help a lot! You will need DAILY 90% water changes to bring ammonia and nitrite down. Do you have a testing kit for ammonia? They are probably dying of ammonia poisoning. Nitrites are high too, they need to be 0.

 

[Easy]

I forgot to add the fish all die the same way. First stop and or slow eating then they just start spending all there time near the surface swimming in place. Doesn't look like they are gasping for air but like they are struggling to swim. Towards the end they look for the place with least amount of current usually in the upper corner or behind the filter before they go bellie up. Don't know if this helps describe what's happening to them. It almost has to be ammonia as its the only thing my test kit doesn't test for. Nitrite is a little high but according to the chart it's only in the low stress range.

Not sure if I can pull off a Daily 90% water change. That is a crazy amount of work for someone who has a 60hr weak job, 3 yr old and a dog. If that's what it's gonna take to fix it I might as well start over.

Can't do a daily 90 but I am guessing any water changing is better then no water changing so I will do as much as I can manage but I am afraid to do it. Originally my PH and KH,GH were way off as well. I think my tap water may be a problem. When I do these water changes WHAT EXACTLY DO I NEED/NOT NEED TO ADD TO THE WATER IM PUTTING IN?

Sorry to the people who don't like caps LOL

 

[JohnDyer]

It would probably be easier to start over, to be honest. Clown loaches will grow to be a foot long, Cory cats like being in schools of 6+ and prefer sand substrate to gravel, and 4 male guppies will harass the 2 females to death.
I would return all of the fish. Petco should refund fish if you bought them under a week ago. There are plenty of guides on knowledgeable people on this forum who can help you with a fishless cycle, which doesn't require nearly as much work.

Gasping at the surface sounds like ammonia poisoning. Ammonia damages a fish's gills, and when it can't get oxygen it'll go to the surface. Nitrite isn't quite as bad, but it should still be at 0 at all times.

 

[slimeneo]

Definitely get something that tests for ammonia, I use API master kit that includes pH, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. For water changes, you only really need to put the dechlorinating liquid, I'm not sure if the other stuff actually helps with cycling.....

Yes, change at least 50% I would say.... Since you don't have an ammonia test, it's hard to say when you won't need one. But when you do get that test, you can probably skip doing as many water changes.

 

[Easy]

Definitely get something that tests for ammonia, I use API master kit that includes pH, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. For water changes, you only really need to put the dechlorinating liquid, I'm not sure if the other stuff actually helps with cycling.....

Yes, change at least 50% I would say.... Since you don't have an ammonia test, it's hard to say when you won't need one. But when you do get that test, you can probably skip doing as many water changes.

API freshwater master kit has been ordered as of last night through Amazon. 16 bucks brand new not bad. to my amazement the sick male Lyetail survived overnight! But for some reason the other smaller male Lyetail has been hiding under the driftwood for the last 2 days and has not come out even for food.

Not sure yet if I need to start all the way over but If I can get off work in time I am for sure going to return most of the fish. I may just keep the red Molly and one cool looking female guppie. That would make about 3 inches of fish for 20g tank. Would that be a good amount of fish to keep to try and complete this fish in cycle or should I just return them all? I mean the Molly has been alive in this tank for over 3 weeks and looks strong. UGH, what a mess . I really screwed this one up. Poor little fishies.

 

[slimeneo]

Hm, well the thing is with fish-in cycles is that you need to keep ammonia and nitrites down to 0 always, or else the fish's gills will be damaged and it may be lethal to them. Thus, you'll end up doing a LOT of water changes...

But let's see, you said your nitrite reading was .5-1, it means that you do have some bacteria converting ammonia to nitrite, you just need more bacteria to convert nitrite to nitrate. I think you'll do okay if you keep a few fish, since at least your cycle has started. But you WILL need to do water changes to lower ammonia and nitrites if you decide to keep them (based on your ammonia and nitrite tests).

Ah, it's okay. It's not your fault, I experienced the same thing When I FIRST got my fish, I went to Walmart (BAD IDEA) and within a day, they all died..... there was no one even working in the fish section, and no one told me what I'd need, except the fish and food. But after that I went to petco, they didn't really tell me anything either but thankfully I did my research and did a fish-in cycling

 

[JohnDyer]

If you return all of the fish, you can do a fishless cycle, which is much faster and less work. You can dose ammonia to 5 ppm a day, which gives the bacteria much more food for them to grow. Since fish can't tolerate that much ammonia, you'll have to make do with what little they poop out, minus the majority of it which you take out via water change. You might even be able to get the pet store to hang onto the fish for you if they look particularly good.

 

[Bugdozer]

This might be a silly question, but if you're doing a fish-in cycle and you're doing 90% changes to remove the ammonia every day, surely you are going to have such a tiny amount of ammonia in the water that it will make the process of growing bacteria in your filter very very slow (because they have almost no food)?

 

[slimeneo]

This might be a silly question, but if you're doing a fish-in cycle and you're doing 90% changes to remove the ammonia every day, surely you are going to have such a tiny amount of ammonia in the water that it will make the process of growing bacteria in your filter very very slow (because they have almost no food)?

Yes, it's slow but according to his results, he already has bacteria that converts ammonia to nitrite. You have to do water changes to keep ammonia low, or else the fish will die. Which is why getting some mature filter media is good, to speed up the process

 

[Easy]

UPDATE:

So I was able to get off work early enough to take the fish back to the store. I returned everything but 1 female guppie 1" and the red Molly 2 " (not sure of sex male I think) then I did a 5 gallon 25% water change with bottled water. I am afraid to add my tap at the moment because of the water being so hard and having such a high Ph . Im not sure if the bottled water was a mistake or not but I had no other choice and I couldnt get an answer on the boards last night or this afternoon. Well anyways everything is looking ok for now. I picked up an ammonia test kit while I wait for my API master kit to be delivered. Shockingly the ammonia was between 0 - .25 it was hard to tell with the color chart but it most definitely was not high according to the chart. My other 6- in 1 test strips are still showing the same reading s pretty much, only really high on the nitrite. But it did come down from 2 to 1-1.5 with the water change. I guess I will do another 5 g tomorrow and see how it goes.
Also I noticed when I added the water change that one of my plants seemed to have a lot of decaying leaves at the base. Do you think this is a problem? The other plants are fine. I think maybe I buried the plant to deep in the gravel and this may be causing it. The plant looks healthy overall and is actually growing like mad.

Any thoughts would be appreciated. I want to learn. I am confused about the low ammonia reading. Everybody was telling me that my ammonia had to be to high.....

 

[JohnDyer]

Low ammonia and high nitrates means your tank has sufficient ammonia -> nitrites bacteria, and is building up nitrites -> nitrates bacteria. That's a good thing, just keep changing water and waiting until nitrites hit 0. You might want to do more than 25% though. Both guppies and mollies prefer harder water.
Some plants will let their lower leaves rot if they don't get any sunlight, because they simply aren't necessary. My water wisteria does that. Rotting stuff will increase ammonia though, so you should probably fish it out.

 

[Easy]

Low ammonia and high nitrates means your tank has sufficient ammonia -> nitrites bacteria, and is building up nitrites -> nitrates bacteria. That's a good thing, just keep changing water and waiting until nitrites hit 0. You might want to do more than 25% though. Both guppies and mollies prefer harder water.
Some plants will let their lower leaves rot if they don't get any sunlight, because they simply aren't necessary. My water wisteria does that. Rotting stuff will increase ammonia though, so you should probably fish it out.

Thank you so much for the info. Sounds like good advice.
So today I just got home from work. The last Guppie is about to die which would leave just the red molly. I have a feeling i am about to be doing a fishless cycle....
So in preparation I read the sticky on this forum about fishless cycling. I stopped by a few stores while on my route at work today to see what I could find. I went to 2 different Ace hardware, a CVS, Lucky's and Raleys. All had scents or surfactants except the ACE brand " Janitorial strength"(which scares me). It did not list any surfactants on the label all it said was 10% ammonia hydroxide and it did not foam up when i shook it so I am assuming this is the stuff. It just scares the crap out of me to put something like this in the tank. What if I am wrong, and it the wrong stuff and blows out my whole tank? ugh. Well anyway here is a pic of the back and front of the bottle. Anybody familiar with this brand?? H-E-L-P
LOL

 

[Essjay]

This might be a silly question, but if you're doing a fish-in cycle and you're doing 90% changes to remove the ammonia every day, surely you are going to have such a tiny amount of ammonia in the water that it will make the process of growing bacteria in your filter very very slow (because they have almost no food)?

I look at it like this - it doesn't matter if the bacteria are ankle deep in food or neck deep, if there's more food than they can currently eat they'll keep on multiplying.
Besides, even if it does take longer, it's better to do the water changes and risk slowing the cycle than have your fish get sick or die.


Easy - that's the brand most Americans recommend, though being in the UK I can't speak from personal experience.

 

[dbanner]

I was doing 90% daily water changes on my 5 foot, 125 gallon to cycle it as well as weekly 50% changes on my 40 gallon turtle tank (already cycled). I was very happy when my local fish store donated me some mature media for my filter, made life so much easier.

And I have a dog (Alaskan malamute) as well as 3 guinea pigs, 2 chinchillas and 5 degus to clean out weekly. Chinchillas take longest as their cage is 4 feet in length, 3 feet wide and 6 feet high. Lol degus cage is slightly smaller

If thats not enough iv got my 50 hr a week (doesn't include the 9 hours a week traveling to and from work) job and an 8 yr old daughter lol tired at the end of every day day doesn't come close lol

I can totally see how you feel but then it's what we must do if we want to keep fish and so on lol