listlessness... getting worse... tips please

[BettaMomma]

Good luck!
Update us tomorrow on how he's doing.

 

[crankwalk]

oh also, is it okay to leave the aquarium salt and bettafix in there or should i change his water again to 100% clean, for the maracyn-two treatment? i don't know if too many things in his water will cause problems

 

[SRC]

Is he breathing hard at all?

Parasite Infestations

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Description:
Some parasites latch onto the outside of a fish, while others find their way inside. There are different medications and treatments for each so it's important to study and find out what's wrong before treating.


Fish who exhibit listless behavior, rapid breathing, loss of appetite and a thin body like it's wasting away could have internal parasites. Check for lumps under the skin/scales.
Ich is the most commonly known parasite; the fish will have white dots scattered all over it.
Velvet is probably the second most common parasite; the fish will have what looks like a gold dusting of the tiny parasites upon it.
I am not a parasite expert, and there are plenty of other guides out there. So I will list them rather than just trying to re-create a listing here, for more information on the many other parasites out there:

North American Betta Society diseases page
Your Pet
Henry and Tammy's Place
Siam's Best Bettas

Treatment:
There are a wide variety of products available on the market today. Products containing copper salt, formalin, or malachite green are often effective. But beware that some products like these cannot be used with certain types of fish, such as invertebrates! If you have scaleless fish like catfish, use reduced amounts of medication. It is always a good idea to do some research to be sure your fish type is okay with something before you medicate with it.


Some Mormyrids (elephant noses) may be particularly sensitive and should not be treated with any medication containing malachite green.
The lowering of dissolved oxygen levels in treated water is often associated with the use of formalin or formalin-containing medications.
(reference link)

Prevention:
Quarantine new fish for several days before introducing to any tank and monitor them for any signs of problems. Parasites can only be introduced from other affected fish, whether by fish, water, net, hand, or anything else that may touch the water they're in. Take care to properly sterilize any equipment used on affected fish, including hands!

Internal Parasite Problems:
Some medications are designed to treat internal problems. Another great way to treat these is to feed medicated food to the fish.

Some products designed for this purpose:
Jungle's Pepso food

Bacterial Infections

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Description:
There are a great number of bacterial strains that may affect a fish. Bacteria are present in water at all times. The fish will become susceptible to them when it is weakened by stress or other factors (such as poor water conditions, bullying tankmates, improper temperature or environment, or possibly even injuries), allowing them to take control. Bacterial infections will typically cause the same types of symptoms: lethargic behavior, loss of appetite; sometimes the fish will have red blood-streaked skin and/or fins; can have ulcers/lesions on body, etc.

Treatment:
Because there are a wide variety of bacteria, there are also a wide variety of medications that must be chosen from. Different bacteria are susceptible to different types of antibiotics: some meds work better against gram-positive bacteria while others are more effective against gram-negative bacteria. If you do not know which kind your fish has, you may have luck with a broad-spectrum antibiotic medication that treats both gram-negative and gram-positive bacteria, for example. Most bacteria that infect fish are gram-negative.


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Some common Gram negative bacteria include Aeromonas hydrophila, Aeromonas salmonicida, Flavobacterium columnare (which causes columnaris), Vibrio, and Pseudomonas species. Other Gram negative bacteria include coliforms (fecal bacteria) such as E. coli and the cycle bacteria, Nitrosomonas sp. and Nitrobacter sp., septicemia (red streaks in the fish).

Some common Gram positive bacteria include Staphylococcus and Streptococcus.
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Prevention:
Antibiotics do not actually cure the problem. Instead they help the fish's immune system to regain control to be able to fight off the infection. Therefore it is very important to examine the fish's environmental factors, water quality, nutrition received, and any other possible stress factors and eliminate these. For prevention, just one important step includes keeping the water very clean by performing frequent water changes. As with any disease the fish is more susceptible to contract an infection following stress. Stress can be caused by environmental factors (bullying fish, improper temperature, drastic changes, etc) as well as poor water conditions.

Internal Bacterial Problems:
Most antibacterial medications treat only external problems. Therefore it is necessary to take stronger measures to get the medication INSIDE the fish: most people do this via medicated food. Another course of action would be to inject the fish with medication but your typical hobbyist is not equiped to do this.

Luckily, some antibiotics are designed to be absorbed internally:
Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Anti-Bacterial
Mardel Labs' Maracyn-Two (for internal gram negative infections only)

Medications

Notes to mention:
Biological filtration systems are not affected by Mardel products.
Please be sure to use all antibiotics properly: do not stop treatment any sooner than 5 days to prevent bacterial mutations, preferrably 7 or more.
Some fish are intolorant of certain medications; research before using. Especially (these are just examples, there are more): scaleless fish like catfish, invertebrates/snails, fry, and don't forget about the plants. Some instances will be noted below, but not all.
Since many antibiotics kill gram-negative bacteria and the biological nitrifying bacteria of an aquarium are also gram-negative, it is better to quarantine the affected fish instead of treating an entire tank.
Simply choosing an antibiotic, unfortunately, isn't enough. Some bacteria are naturally resistant to specific medications, and some are mutated and will only respond to increased doseages. Often it's not possible to even determine what type of bacteria you're dealing with. Or maybe it's both! If the fish doesn't improve within a few days, switch medications. Or try a broad-spectrum one that kills both gram-negative and positive bacteria, such as neomycin, chloramphenicol, nitrofurazone based products, skin absorbed kanamycin sulfate based antibiotics such as Kanacyn/K-Mycin, or tetracycline. Products such as Spectrogram by Aquatronics is an ultra-wide spectrum antibiotic blend of nitrofurazone and kanamycin that's useful for such purposes.
Gram-positive bacteria are often unaffected by tetracycline and streptomycin.
Gram-negative bacteria may be unaffected by ampicillin, penicillin, erythromycin and sulfa
Some bacteria may be unaffected by the usual dose, but are susceptible to a higher dose.
Sulfa based drugs are quite effective against Gram negative bacteria.

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Antibacterial
Manufacturer: Aquarium Pharmaceuticals


Bettamax
Manufacturer: Aquatronics
Antibiotic capsules for treating listlessness, poor appetite, damage fins, poor color, vitamin deficiency, bacterial and fungal infections. For freshwater use only. Specific for Bettas, Guppies, and all fancy-finned fish.
Contains: 250 mg nitrofurazone, methylene blue, pvp, vitamins, NaCl sulfas, methazine, diazine, and merazine.


Erythromycin
Bacterial medication that treats gram positive & some gram negative bacteria, including those that cause fin and tail rot, Gill Disease and Molly Disease.


Spectrogram
Ultra-wide spectrum antibiotic for treating: red body patches, hemorrhage, white body slime, protruding scales, bacterial infections, Furunculosis, Columnaris and fungal infections. For use in fresh and marine aquariums. Do not use with invertebrates. Great for quarantine tanks and baths.
Active Ingredients: nitrofurazone, kanamycin.


Tetracycline
Manufacturer: Aquatronics
A broad-spectrum antibiotic used in the treatment of gram-positive and some gram-negative bacterial infections. For infections of fin and tail rot, frayed fins, popeye, inflamed gills, mouth and body open sores/ulcers, livebearer disease, dropsy, Columnaris, and secondary infections such as fungal. Specific for livebearers and goldfish. Aerate the aquarium well when using. Useful for the control of some common bacterial diseases, including Aeromonias and Pseudomonas Genera and the Mysobacterial group.


Maracyn
Manufacturer: Mardel
A broad-spectrum antibiotic for gram-positive bacterial infections. For infections of columnaris (body fungus), fin and tail rot, popeye, gill disease, and secondary infections.
Active ingredient: Erythromycin.


Maracyn–Two
Manufacturer: Mardel
A broad-spectrum antibiotic for internal or external gram negative bacterial infections which can even be absorbed through the skin. Effective treatment of fin and tail rot, popeye, gill disease, dropsy (swollen body, protruding scales), septicemia (bleeding or red streaks on the body), secondary and internal infections. Effective even when fish won't eat.
Active ingredient: Mincycline hydrochlor.


Coppersafe
Manufacturer: Mardel
Chelated copper treatment recommended for the treatment of ick, flukes, anchor worms, velvet, protozoan diseases and other external parasites.


Aquarisol
Manufacturer: Aquarium Products
Mild, effective treatment for curing Ich and other parasite infestations. Contains soluble copper salts.


Methylene Blue
Treats superficial fungal infections of fish. Helps prevent fungal infections on fish eggs; effective against superficial fungal infections. Treats ich. May adversly affect the biological system; quarantine and treat sick fish when possible. Use as an alternative to Malachite Green for the control of fungus when it is known that the fish to be treated are sensitive.


Malachite Green
For treatment of external parasites as well as external fungal infections of fishes and eggs which include Achlya and Saprolegnia.


Clout
Manufacturer: Aquarium Products
A very strong and effective medication for parasitic and protozoan infestations. Treats: Ich, Hydra, leeches, Planaria, Epistylis, Trichodina, Hexamita,Tetrahy-mena, body fungus, digenetic flukes, parasitic copepods, monogenetic flukes and anchor worms.


Maracide
Controls Ich and other common parasites


TriSulfa
For the prevention and control of common bacterial diseases


Maroxy
Anti-fungal for true fungus; also effective against bacteria


Triple Sulfa
Manufacturer: Aquarium Pharmaceuticals
A broad spectrum antibacterial medication that treats fungal infections, furunculosis (aeromonas), fin and tail rot, columnaris, body slime/white body and fin blotches, cloudy eyes, molly disease, and bacterial hemorrhagic septicemia.
Active Ingredients: sulfamethazine, sulfacetamide, and sulfathiazole.


Kanacyn
Manufacturer: Aquatronics
A gram positive and gram negative bacteria treatment for red streaks or hemorrhaging, dropsy, fin and tail rot, inflamed gills, protruding or loss of scales, fungal infections, vibrio, tuberculosis, wasting away and body ulcers.


Super Sulfa
Manufacturer: Aquatronics
Anti-fungal/anti-bacterial medication for treating cottony patches, fin and tail rot, white body and fin blotches, fungal infections, molly disease and bacterial infections.


Furanace
Manufacturer: Aquarium Products
Antibiotic which treats fin and tail rot, mouth and eye sores, cloudy eyes, wasting away, bacterial infections, fungal infections, pop eye, and molly/tetra disease. Do not use with inverts!
Active Ingredient: erythromycin


Myacin
Manufacturer: Aquatronics
Anti-fungal/anti-bacterial medication for treating cottony patches, fin and tail rot, white body and fin blotches, fungal infections, molly disease and bacterial infections.

 

[BettaMomma]

If you can do a water change without stressing him out too much I'd go for it.
Actually, you will want to catch him and take him out, or change out a very large portion of his water before you medicate him. You can put the salt back in while you treat.

Good luck!

 

[crankwalk]

Yes, I am pretty sure he doesn't get too stressed when I change his water. I've abandoned the net.. what I do is wait for him to swim near the top and i dip his cup in.. he swims into the cup or else i catch him in it, gently and lift the cup out so he always stays in water.

So then tomorrow I will change his water again, and then medicate. I will add salt the next day in that case just so he doesn't have too many things hitting him at once.

Since I'm going to the LFS, do you have any better suggestion for a dechlorinator or is Stress Coat okay? That's what I've been using because its supposed to help their slime coating but i'm not sure if there's something better.

And wow, thanks SRC for all that information. He doesn't seem to be breathing hard but sometimes i've noticed every once in a while, not very often.. he moves his gills like he's breathing.. but then he stops. is that a sign of heavy breathing?

I haven't seen any lumps under the skin or scales though... but he does seem a little thinner when i look at him from above :\ maybe its just paranoia

I am really hoping the Maracyn-Two does the trick.. sounds like a good treatment!

 

[BettaMomma]

Stress Coat is fine. That's all I ever use for dechlor (I found out about its greatness from the great ppl on this forum, too!).

How's he doing today?

And the cup method is way way better, in my opinion, than the nets. I don't even own an net. I use cups all the time

He could be getting a tad bit thinner. He should start to perk up after just a few days of treatment.

 

[crankwalk]

He's still the same today.. I got called into work this morning at 7AM so I just now got back from that, and from the LFS.

Picked up a packet of Maracyn-Two and they didn't have Pepso food but I picked up Jungle "Anti-Parasite Medicated Fish Food"

http/www.junglelabs.com/pages/details.asp?item=JF170

Is this any good? I just picked it up because I was in a rush.. it seems it takes a long time to dose according to the directions...

Feed exclusively for 3 consecutive days a week for 4 weeks.

Or is Pepso food the best? The Pepso directions that I found online were:

Feed for four days, return to normal diet.

So I don't know if its stronger or what. I'm not inclined to open the package of Jungle until I get a yea or nay on this, because if I need to take it back and get Pepso instead if its better, I'll have to order the Pepso because nobody carries it around here.

I will begin treatment with Maracyn as soon as I change his water again (in about three minutes). Will keep everyone posted!

 

[SRC]

I say use what you have..if you order it could take up to 2 weeks to receive...and that's a along time for a fsh to wait for medicine (believe me I've been there..and th outcome was not so great).

 

[crankwalk]

Okay I'll probably just feed it to him a little bit later on. I have just changed his water. 2 fresh gallons of water, temp adjusted to right around 83 degrees and holding. Added 15 drops of Stress Coat (7 per gallon + 1 for good measure!) and dropped in just a little bit less than half a tab of Maracyn-Two for his first treatment. I cut it with a sharp knife, just a little bit uneven so he has more than half a tab leftover. For the next couple days treatments I will try to cut this into little less than quarters and shave some excess off with the tip of the knife to get it down closer to a 2gal dose. I hope this guesstimate is okay. My greatest fear is to overdose, so I'm always paranoid of amounts . Boy its taking a long time for this Maracyn to dissolve.

*edit* whoops, i forgot that i was advised to crush it and let it dissolve.. no wonder.. DOH *edit*

 

[crankwalk]

Another quick update:

I crushed the Maracyn using a chop stick that only belongs to him (i use it to stir the dechlorinator around).. It flew apart and is now dissolving very quickly.

1. Good news, he's eating -- he had three pellets of Hikari Betta Bio Gold and I cut him off

2. Bad news, he's not eating the Jungle Medicated Food. I cut the pellets (very tough to do) into smaller more manageable pieces.. and he would lunge at it, and spit it out immediately. He would attempt to eat it off the bottom and he would spit it out again. This is when I tried to give him his regular food.. ate it right up, so I guess his appetite came back. I tried three pellets of Jungle, and nothing.. so three strikes, its going back to the store (for store credit only.. oh well).

3. Other news - he was trying to eat the maracyn chips at the bottom.. he spits those out too, but I have to ask.. is it dangerous if he manages to actually swallow one - I would guess not but can't be too careful. Next time I"ll crush it so its finely ground.. no chips.

Well I'm just going to wait and see if the Maracyn works its magic. He was less lethargic just now than he has been, so at least its good to see him moving around. Will post more updates as I get a chance.

 

[BettaMomma]

Everything you're doing sounds great! Just start crushing the tabs and dissolving them in a bit of tank water before dumping it in - that's the only thing I'd change, but it sounds like you have already thought of that

It shouldn't hurt him much if he gets the maracyn chunks into his mouth - back before I dissolved them before I put them into my tanks, my fish all tried to eat the med bits. The yellow crumbles are just a bonding agent that holds the actual meds together and it's safe for them. Some of them might not actually ever dissolve completely, and that's okay. The meds still get into the water.

The dosing yo'ure doing should be just perfectly fine. I wouldn't worry too much about overdosing - your amounts are so close to what you should be doing... It would only really be a worry if you were giving him a whole lot more than he should have.

Do you happen to have any frozen blood worms there? If you do, you might try soaking the medicated food in the juice from those before you drop them in. That might tempt him a little bit... If you don't, I'd just stop trying w/the medicated food because it sounds like he isn't liking the taste of it anyway.

Sounds like he's going to do okay!

 

[crankwalk]

Hi, thanks for responding.. Trevor's condition hasn't changed too much (although only 2nd day on meds), he's still listless with fins clamped but he's eating, I gave him a couple of pellets yesterday and he gobbled them right up. Dropped in a crushed less-than-quarter sized piece of a tablet for his second dose right after.

I don't have any frozen bloodworms, I usually give him pellets and freeze dried bloodworms about 2 or 3 times a week as well.

I did notice however that his tank is now quite cloudy, but I read on the package of the Maracyn-Two that it can cloud his tank, so I"m not too worried. What I do see though, is a lot of little stringy-cottony looking things at the bottom and suspended in the middle of the water as well. They are very thin and about 1-2 inches long. I am not sure what that could be, any idea? It doesn't look organic i.e. waste. I'm not sure if I should pull it out with his turkey baster or if its part of the medication. It happened overnight though because his tank was pretty clean looking last night before I went to bed.

I appreciate the help, have a Happy 4th!

 

[sandig]

Stringy white things...I would think parasites. You can use Maracide to treat for parasites. Continue with the maracyn too to prevent infection. It is a good sign he is still eating

Sandi

 

[crankwalk]

So if these were internal parasites, then maybe he passed them? they really don't look like any kind of organism they just look like cotton strings. so i'll get them out then. very wierd.

 

[OrkyBetta]

No no, if there is stringy things hanging off of your fish it is EXternal parasites. Macaryn combo and some salt will do the trick.