Lets cull the nonsense..

[BoningKnife]

When have I ever said I favour survival? That's the problem right there. I favour thriving. I favour breeding. I favour good suitable habitats and happy well cared for fish.
So yeah, you were and arguably still are twisting my words entirely and honestly I don't care enough to continue on that particular subject.
In regard to some of the more hardy, hugely widespread species, to much onus is put on water parameters that a mass produced fish has no idea its meant to prefer. I'm personally not even particularly interested in species like that, however I am interested in the hobby overall. By ignoring the facts of certain species widespread success and the things that put them on the popular platform they already hold is seemingly overlooked. That isn't putting the fishes wellbeing first, it's being unnecessarily cautious and it's taking a lot of the charm of our hobby away from those who are new to it.
We should be helping beginners succeed with what they want to do where it's realistic instead of trying to restrict them further and further at every turn. There are plenty of restrictions in this hobby, we shouldn't be actively forcing more unnecessary ones on people. Engage people, push them onto good publications. Try to get them posting regularly, find there passion and help to feed it. The same answers to every question regardless of the importance of the answer in balance of reality is going to mean the forum continues to survive off of the occasional panicked newbie, if we as members want it to be more than that, then we as members need to adjust our approach to things. Maybe it's to late, maybe forums are doomed. As it stands right now though the writing is on the wall for places like this and that's just a sad reality because I personally believe it could and should be a lot more than that.

 

[Aussie_Bristle]

IMO and what I have seen, people come here for a quick fix and they are advised the correct way. There is so many ppl I have seen with sick unhealthy fish come in here and when I check when they joined it was pretty much an hour or 2 before they asked the question. So to me they search the forum to see if they can get a quick answer then end up asking for help and once they get an answer you don’t hear from them again. The advice on here is given as a give or take. Some ppl take the advice and others put it in the hard basket and look for an easier fix elsewhere.
I honestly agree with both sides here and you are right how do you know it’s got to do with the GH etc? With Colin, Byron, Seagee and the rest of the knowledgeable ones it’s like they go around in circles with the same questions and answers. I don’t know how many times I’ve seen Colin post the same thing over and over because ppl don’t realise how much effort goes into proper fish keeping. They just think you put a fish in a tank and feed it and that’s it!
I honestly believe fish keeping is learning curve, there is no right or wrong to an extent. I for one have had to learn by quite a few mistakes but I’ve learnt from them and I am now to where I want to be in fish keeping. I have spent a bucket load of money but it’s worth it and everyday I succeed abit more with my tanks.

 

[communityfluvalroma]

I hear what you’re saying and I think this is a great topic that does need discussing.

You make a very valid point regarding our hobby, stock issues and supply and demand issues if we don’t look to encourage ‘beginners’ into this fantastic hobby.

My counter argument to your point is; would offering the wrong advice ie ‘yes you can keep hard water fish with soft water fish’, not have a detrimental affect on beginners enthusiasm for the hobby. If we relax the ‘rules’ so to speak, I have no doubt that the beginner will run into more issues as a result of the relaxed advice, compared to if they were given the correct advice from the beginning.

The correct advice from the outset will result in a happier and healthier aquarium and a direct correlation to a happier and more enthusiastic fish keeper. Who will then hopefully stay in the hobby, passing their knowledge on to friends, family and forums.

 

[BoningKnife]

All I'm attempting to suggest is instead of giving the same blanket answers. Maybe we should try to be more reality based and metaphorically take a hold of the newbies by the hand and try to guide them deeper into the hobby without instantly imposing more restrictions on them. If the sorta restrictions I'm discussing are this open to debate, it's not unreasonable to say maybe, just maybe a change in approach might help us to keep people around longer and get them further interested in the hobby, let's try to get people as sucked in as we can, not push them away.

 

[BoningKnife]

I hear what you’re saying and I think this is a great topic that does need discussing.

You make a very valid point regarding our hobby, stock issues and supply and demand issues if we don’t look to encourage ‘beginners’ into this fantastic hobby.

My counter argument to your point is; would offering the wrong advice ie ‘yes you can keep hard water fish with soft water fish’, not have a detrimental affect on beginners enthusiasm for the hobby. If we relax the ‘rules’ so to speak, I have no doubt that the beginner will run into more issues as a result of the relaxed advice, compared to if they were given the correct advice from the beginning.

The correct advice from the outset will result in a happier and healthier aquarium and a direct correlation to a happier and more enthusiastic fish keeper. Who will then hopefully stay in the hobby, passing their knowledge on to friends, family and forums.

I'm not trying to suggest anything as extreme as that. Some fish are specifically hard or soft water. No getting away from that. Others, due to a variety of reasons, not least the way in which they are mass produced, as long as parameters aren't in the extremes, it is almost entirely irrelevant imo, open to debate at best. If something is that open to debate its not worthwhile pushing more and more newcomers away over.

 

[Irksome]

There are a lot of blanket answers that don’t make sense and a lot that do. For instance newcomers are frequently told to take their fish back to the lfs if their water perameters are less than ideal. Unless the fish is extemely poorly suited to the tank size the stress of the move coupled with the high chance of being bought by someone in the same area with the same water means a faster death sentence for those fish. It doesn’t make sense but people recommend it time after time.

 

[Martyn87]

In regard to some of the more hardy, hugely widespread species, to much onus is put on water parameters that a mass produced fish has no idea its meant to prefer. I'm personally not even particularly interested in species like that, however I am interested in the hobby overall. By ignoring the facts of certain species widespread success and the things that put them on the popular platform they already hold is seemingly overlooked. That isn't putting the fishes wellbeing first, it's being unnecessarily cautious and it's taking a lot of the charm of our hobby away from those who are new to it.
We should be helping beginners succeed with what they want to do where it's realistic instead of trying to restrict them further and further at every turn. There are plenty of restrictions in this hobby, we shouldn't be actively forcing more unnecessary ones on people. Engage people, push them onto good publications. Try to get them posting regularly, find there passion and help to feed it. The same answers to every question regardless of the importance of the answer in balance of reality is going to mean the forum continues to survive off of the occasional panicked newbie, if we as members want it to be more than that, then we as members need to adjust our approach to things. Maybe it's to late, maybe forums are doomed. As it stands right now though the writing is on the wall for places like this and that's just a sad reality because I personally believe it could and should be a lot more than that.

I think your initial post may be slightly taken out of context Bonning and I think your latter reply above helps clarify matters. Might be worth just amending the original post to state that first.

I think your point I quoted above is the crux of the discussion. It’s whether mass producing of fish has caused the fish to evolve in a short enough period of time to have fully acclimated to human treated water rather than their natural wild water. An then whether the forum promoting that owners keep fish in parameters close to their natural habitat is being too cautious. Which your suggesting in effect is discouraging new fish keepers from the hobby.

 

[BoningKnife]

All the evidence would suggest that evolution has certainly done the job in that sense. The fact remains the sort of fish I'm discussing have been successfully kept, maintained long term and bred all over the world for decade after decade after decade. This is not a new hobby. There are mass produced fish that have been kept all over since at least the early days of my grandads time in the fishkeeping hobby. If they were dieing after a couple of months all over the world, there's no possibility that would be the case.

 

[Guppy10]

I agree, I have a mix and it's not ideal, but this is my reality so have to engineer around it. 25% water change every 2 weeks for some but 75% every week is from the experts so it's a muddle. I still think it's what works for you. Ie deep gravel cleaning is good,,,,,,,,,, at releasing toxins that bacteria are dealing with, see my point.
All give info to the best of their ability but no need to get arsy about it. You cannot feel the same about a fish so the dog analogy doesn't work and if folk cry about a guppy that dies due to the fish or their negligence then that's up to them. I see both sides so cannot knock anyone.
Tbh I think this is cos you have knowledge and are looking back to the newbie questions. I had it with cars, started with a q and ended up an expert in the area so looked at the same issues time after time n it got tiresome. Luckily some here have the patience to answer every day, without them it would die as you no.
How many qs can get asked ?
I think every q should be answered with---- video please,,, if they can't be bothered then so be it !, Colin n co must have the patience of saints so I thank them emmensely for what they helped me with but agree things must change. Maybe more photos n vids of what you've got and sucess stories ? Bragging rights maybe but ones sucess saves a member from learning the hard way.
.

 

[BoningKnife]

I dont have anything particularly exciting right now unfortunately. The only tank I have running right now is a nano and I'm not happy enough with it right now to wanna share it if that makes sense, the only fish right now are a few cherry barbs. This is very much a short term problem based on my current circumstances, breakdown of a marriage and all the associated problems. However in the next few weeks the nano will be how I want it and i will be getting started on the empty 75 UK gallon (just under 100 gallon including the sump) I have sat empty. I also have a coffee jar of disappointment on my kitchen windowsill but we won't count that lmfao.

 

[FishkeeperLinz]

I hear what you’re saying and I think this is a great topic that does need discussing.

You make a very valid point regarding our hobby, stock issues and supply and demand issues if we don’t look to encourage ‘beginners’ into this fantastic hobby.

My counter argument to your point is; would offering the wrong advice ie ‘yes you can keep hard water fish with soft water fish’, not have a detrimental affect on beginners enthusiasm for the hobby. If we relax the ‘rules’ so to speak, I have no doubt that the beginner will run into more issues as a result of the relaxed advice, compared to if they were given the correct advice from the beginning.

The correct advice from the outset will result in a happier and healthier aquarium and a direct correlation to a happier and more enthusiastic fish keeper. Who will then hopefully stay in the hobby, passing their knowledge on to friends, family and forums.

And then imagine just how annoyed the beginner would be when their fish keep dying and someone finally tells them it could be because their water chemistry doesn't meet the fish's needs?

I know I'd be furious!

 

[Guppy10]

Wow, been there m8, so good luck n get back on track. It's hard but the future is what you make it, I no easy to say, but only you can do it. Like I say, been in the depths n it's not nice, but you'll be ok.

 

[Guppy10]

What are you trying to say fish keeper, I'm at a loss or totally thick to your point. Please expand.

 

[BoningKnife]

And then imagine just how annoyed the beginner would be when their fish keep dying and someone finally tells them it could be because their water chemistry doesn't meet the fish's needs?

I know I'd be furious!

And yet categorically they are successfully kept all over the world under a variety of parameters. So like I say, unless the parameters are extreme there is a perfectly good chance they failed for another reason. Also, if for whatever reason in a specific instance we can say yeah sure its the parameters, that doesn't mean we can't advise accordingly. For every one person who does have a problem like that I guarantee there's another nine who haven't. The fact remains they are as widespread as they are and have been kept, often together, with relative ease for many generations. You don't need to like what I'm saying but facts are facts and common sense is there to be seen. If there was no place for my argument these types of fish would never have become as widespread as they are, never mind maintained that popularity for a great many years.

 

[AbbeysDad]

I've been in the hobby over 50 years, long before Al Gore invented the internet <grins>. In the last few years I've bred, grown out and sold hundreds of Swordtails. I've only scanned this thread and really don't care to challenge anyone, merely offer my thoughts...
I believe that at times more emphasis is placed on water chemistry than today's hobby warrants. This is 'old school' thinking by well meaning, experienced hobbyists. Fish in the hobby today can be wild caught from specific waters, but many are bred and raised in ponds and tanks in a wide range of water chemistries. To assume that a fish, bred and raised for generations in moderate water must have very soft or very hard water is just plain wrong. So the focus of the advice, while well meaning and sometimes accurate, may be well off the mark.
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Just for kicks, lets compare water chemistry to food. Fish in the wild don't eat dry processed pellets or flakes loaded with grain starch. How many hobbyists are culturing or collecting live foods for their fish?
Lets compare water quality. Fish in the wild see waters that are constantly renewed by nature, often by daily rains somewhere upstream. How many hobbyists do water changes every day?
(There is so much fresh water flowing in the Amazon river, that fresh water can be collected 12 miles out at sea!)
Extremes in water chemistry is bad, but iron rules about water chemistry and fish species can be very wrong.
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As far as the internet... there's a lot of good information out there. But there's also a lot of myths and crap posted by well meaning hobbyists. The more some things are repeatedly spewed, the more they seem like truth. It has to be evaluated under a common sense magnifying glass.
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One thing that I think (or hope) we can agree on is there is no such thing as too much fresh water. So keep a clean tank. Service the filter and vacuum the gravel frequently to get the crud out of the system and very importantly, do routine sufficient volume and frequency of partial water changes.
(Many of my tanks get 50%+ water changes twice a week!)