Interesting Study
- Thread starter wuvmybetta
- Start date
BeccaBlain
Fish Crazy
Honestly, when I get into breeding somewhere down the road, that is what I'm going to do -- if it works in Nature, I don't see why it can't work for an aquarium.
But then again, I can't see pampering a fish that in nature it should have died anyway. I mean, think about it. We nuture the "culls" so to speak, and end up with the problem of not having any homes for these fish that would not survive in the wild anyway.
We end up with the culls that get sicker easier, and occassionally these culls are bred into the lines. Maybe we don't realize we are doing it, but by interbreeding the good strong stock with the culls, we are getting weaker fish that keel over from ich or velvet.
They don't get Melafix in the wild, afterall -- and somehow, just somehow, these fish survive despite that.
I think the American breeders ARE doing something wrong -- I have two fish bred here, and one bred in singapore, and my singapore bred one is MUCH tougher and healthier and larger than the other two boys I have.
How much does our pampering and trying to keep unhealthy or weak fry alive actually -harm- our lines?
Now, I'm not saying go out and kill the fry, but if NATURE seems to think this is the way it should go, then perhaps Nature has the right idea.
I know I would let Nature run its course. I'd be sad for losing the fry, but that is what happens.
(and of course I'd start eating fry too, if no one fed me for days on end and I was USED to having a daily diet of yummy grub. In fact, it makes so much sense that the fish get -pissy- when you miss their feedings. If you feed constantly, the fish know when their food "magically" appears. I know my fish start crowding around the front of the tank when its getting close to dinner time. It is a constant source of amusement for my husband and I.)
But eh, I would rather have 1% of the fry survive, and have strong, healthy fish that could pull through on their own than have a 90% fry survival rate and end up with fish I have to treat for some problem or another every other week.
Becca
But then again, I can't see pampering a fish that in nature it should have died anyway. I mean, think about it. We nuture the "culls" so to speak, and end up with the problem of not having any homes for these fish that would not survive in the wild anyway.
We end up with the culls that get sicker easier, and occassionally these culls are bred into the lines. Maybe we don't realize we are doing it, but by interbreeding the good strong stock with the culls, we are getting weaker fish that keel over from ich or velvet.
They don't get Melafix in the wild, afterall -- and somehow, just somehow, these fish survive despite that.
I think the American breeders ARE doing something wrong -- I have two fish bred here, and one bred in singapore, and my singapore bred one is MUCH tougher and healthier and larger than the other two boys I have.
How much does our pampering and trying to keep unhealthy or weak fry alive actually -harm- our lines?
Now, I'm not saying go out and kill the fry, but if NATURE seems to think this is the way it should go, then perhaps Nature has the right idea.
I know I would let Nature run its course. I'd be sad for losing the fry, but that is what happens.
(and of course I'd start eating fry too, if no one fed me for days on end and I was USED to having a daily diet of yummy grub. In fact, it makes so much sense that the fish get -pissy- when you miss their feedings. If you feed constantly, the fish know when their food "magically" appears. I know my fish start crowding around the front of the tank when its getting close to dinner time. It is a constant source of amusement for my husband and I.)
But eh, I would rather have 1% of the fry survive, and have strong, healthy fish that could pull through on their own than have a 90% fry survival rate and end up with fish I have to treat for some problem or another every other week.
Becca
endparenthesis
Fish Herder
I'm with you, Becca. I don't feel right pampering fish... I want them to be healthy and happy of course, but encouraging them to weaken in the long run certainly doesn't help them. I feel like I'm stealing the gift of adaptability nature gave them.
When I first got into fish stuff, I remember reading about how people would go to these great lengths to keep everything sterile and pure... even having a different net to use for every tank just to make sure absolutely no cross-contamination is going on. And I thought, "What's wrong with these people? Do I really have to do this? How can this be enjoyable?"
Then I saw a picture of a guy in Thailand just scooping a betta up in his hands to put it into the breeding tank. And a light bulb went on.
I bet these people don't have to worry about how stressed their fish get when the temperature changes two degrees or when the lights come on suddenly or whatever.
(Note: I can understand the seperate nets etc if you have lots of expensive tanks with lots of expensive fish... it's one of the reasons I don't plan on delving that deep into the hobby.)
I love something George Carlin said in a routine once. He talked about how he swam in this awful polluted river all the time as a kid... how if he drops a piece of food he'll just pick it right up and eat it... that sort of thing. And he says now he never ever gets sick. You don't build up an immune system by living in a bubble. And the people who wash their hands obsessively and constantly disinfect everything in their houses wonder why they seem to catch a cold every month or two (which probably just makes them clean harder
).
Anyway... I have a tank of betta fry at the moment, and I'd already taken the father out when this was posted. But I think this is something I might try if I do it again. It makes sense not to do it this time just because my inexperience may cull quite a few fry without any help from the male being necessary.
We'll see.
When I first got into fish stuff, I remember reading about how people would go to these great lengths to keep everything sterile and pure... even having a different net to use for every tank just to make sure absolutely no cross-contamination is going on. And I thought, "What's wrong with these people? Do I really have to do this? How can this be enjoyable?"
Then I saw a picture of a guy in Thailand just scooping a betta up in his hands to put it into the breeding tank. And a light bulb went on.
I bet these people don't have to worry about how stressed their fish get when the temperature changes two degrees or when the lights come on suddenly or whatever.(Note: I can understand the seperate nets etc if you have lots of expensive tanks with lots of expensive fish... it's one of the reasons I don't plan on delving that deep into the hobby.
)I love something George Carlin said in a routine once. He talked about how he swam in this awful polluted river all the time as a kid... how if he drops a piece of food he'll just pick it right up and eat it... that sort of thing. And he says now he never ever gets sick. You don't build up an immune system by living in a bubble. And the people who wash their hands obsessively and constantly disinfect everything in their houses wonder why they seem to catch a cold every month or two (which probably just makes them clean harder
).Anyway... I have a tank of betta fry at the moment, and I'd already taken the father out when this was posted. But I think this is something I might try if I do it again. It makes sense not to do it this time just because my inexperience may cull quite a few fry without any help from the male being necessary.
We'll see.one thing i've found is that fry are a lot tougher than we often give them credit for. often, when introducing more (aged) water into the grow out tank we will just take a bucket and pour it in (we try to pour it on the sides of the tank of course) but the water still swirls around and the fry get tossed around quite a bit, the thing is, it doesn't bother them a bit, my wife says it's like exercise for them 
OP
OP
True, they arebkk_group said:one thing i've found is that fry are a lot tougher than we often give them credit for. often, when introducing more (aged) water into the grow out tank we will just take a bucket and pour it in (we try to pour it on the sides of the tank of course) but the water still swirls around and the fry get tossed around quite a bit, the thing is, it doesn't bother them a bit, my wife says it's like exercise for them
I pour my water in pretty abruptly and the fry act all dramatic but they're tougher than they look I try to be especially rough with my fry on purpose. My house stays pretty warm and I don't use heaters so this means they have temperature fluctuation on a regular basis, such as when the AC comes on, at night when I turn out the lights etc..I think it's a good thing
So far my results are fantastic 
shrks1fan
Fish Herder
Yea, I've been becoming "not so careful" with my fry lately too for the same reason, if they're that weak then let nature take it's course, Lol. I want strong adults from my fry, not weaklings that get upset or sick at the drop of a hat (or a drop of a temp degree, Lol).
It's just like babies...if you tip toe around the house while they're sleeping and don't make a noise, they won't get used to sleeping around noise and will wake up at any little noise. But if you let them get used to sleeping with "normal" sounds and noise, then they'll always sleep much better in all circumstances.
Linda
http/www.pet-emporium.com
http/www.cooking-fanatics.com
It's just like babies...if you tip toe around the house while they're sleeping and don't make a noise, they won't get used to sleeping around noise and will wake up at any little noise. But if you let them get used to sleeping with "normal" sounds and noise, then they'll always sleep much better in all circumstances.
Linda
http
/www.pet-emporium.comhttp
/www.cooking-fanatics.comthere is a great little book out there available at most LFS called simply "bettas" published by barron's. it was written by one robert j. goldstein, phd. and i recommend it to everyone. many of the people who contributed expertise are considered a who's who of the betta world so you know it's well researched. anyways, there is a chapter on breeding and i found an interesting little blurb related to the topic at hand.
"...ken muller found that leaving the female with the male after spawning (with abundant vegetation for a refuge), encouraged nest protecting behavior. furthermore, when leaving the female and male permanently in the aquarium even after the fry were free-swimming, the parents did not eat all the fry, and continued to produce several spawns with the fry of earlier spawns in the aquarium. bettas raised in this manner seemed to produce kinder, gentler breeders in the next generation, with lowered aggression and fin damage during spawning".
"...ken muller found that leaving the female with the male after spawning (with abundant vegetation for a refuge), encouraged nest protecting behavior. furthermore, when leaving the female and male permanently in the aquarium even after the fry were free-swimming, the parents did not eat all the fry, and continued to produce several spawns with the fry of earlier spawns in the aquarium. bettas raised in this manner seemed to produce kinder, gentler breeders in the next generation, with lowered aggression and fin damage during spawning".
cutecotton
Fish Herder
hmmm interesting
coconutman39
Fishaholic
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wow, this is really interesting! ok i dont no if i want to try this or not so what do you guys think. im gonna breed 2 red CTs soon, my first time. ive read EVERYTHING i could on breeding so i know the procedure. do you think i should be a test dummy for this method or what? im willing, i would be sad if my fish all died, but then again i would learn and know how to do stuff better next time. opinions?
OP
OP
I realize they say it's not recommended for beginner's which is understandable as a pre-caution but I don't see why it would be any more difficult this way, except you have to be extremely careful about disturbing dad too much.
shrks1fan
Fish Herder
yea, personally I think the way we do it now is more dificult for the beginner then this method, Lol.
Linda
http/www.pet-emporium.com
http/www.cooking-fanatics.com
Linda
http
/www.pet-emporium.comhttp
/www.cooking-fanatics.comcutecotton
Fish Herder
lol the more i think about it the more i agree...excpet how on earth would you clean the water without stressing dad out and making him go ballistic and feeding all the fry?
one thing that should i guess be noted is the fact that dad could get beat up pretty bad during breeding (this has actually never happened to any of my males, it's always the females that look sorry in the end) but it could happen, i hear about it all the time, would one just leave him in the tank to tend to his wounds himself? and if you were to leave the female in like in that article i noted, wouldn't it make it a lot more difficult for her to recover effectively? just some thoughts to consider...
jacblades
im not the jedi i should be
wiked?
when i change the water, i carefully scoop it out with a gallon water jug and then put the new water in a bucket and balance it on top of the tank (on the corner) and siphon it in with airline tubing. it does it gently and slowly.
when i change the water, i carefully scoop it out with a gallon water jug and then put the new water in a bucket and balance it on top of the tank (on the corner) and siphon it in with airline tubing. it does it gently and slowly.
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