House Cats

[KathyM]

Thanks for coming back CR - after posting I realised you'd mellowed somewhat throughout the thread.

I still can't agree with you on the idea that people shouldn't have a cat if it can't go out, but I can agree to disagree.

I'll give you a rundown of our cats to try and help explain why.

1. Dodge. Dodge is 9. He was born in a dodgey rescue and was locked in a box room for the first 3 years of his life with his mum and brother. The dodgey rescue's owner died, and he went to a fantastic rescue that I've helped at in the past and have fostered for. He was completely lacking in socialisation and I believe agorophobic (sp?) because of his early years. He spent the first 3 weeks at home hiding behind the telly and we even had to feed him there. THAT's how scared he was. He's had the opportunity (accidentally admittedly) to go out and is very scared when the outside doors get opened - legs it upstairs, safe. So you can imagine he would freak out as an outside cat.

2. Grace. She's 4. We've had her since she was 4 weeks old, as a companion for Dodge. She is blind in one eye and moderately brain damaged. Dodge is her "nanny". He does everything for her - grooms her, guides her. Considering she's such a witch, she's pretty lucky to have him. But, given her disabilities and Dodge's reluctance, she's never been able to go out, which suits us fab as that's what we were looking for.

3. Errol. Errol is just numb. He came to us after having bit through a mains cable in his previous home and nearly dying from the electric shock. The shock lost him half his tongue, and he has long term/permanent kidney damage - we're not sure what other effects it has had on him (but he's thick so maybe a bit brain damaged too?). The kidney damage/shock (not sure which, but vet feels shock) has left him prone to struvite crystals, and he has had two near death blockages so far in which he went from happy kitten to unconscious within hours. He had to have invasive therapy (flushing through catheter) each time, one time he was hospitalised for days. Symptoms are vague and it can often be a few hours into blockage before it's noticed. If he went out he could come down with this and we wouldn't be around.


Now a bit about us. Baz and I are home full time (I'll be starting college in Sept part time). We also have 3 kids. So, when we went looking for indoor cats, we did so making sure:

1. We had the time to ensure a full, happy and mentally stimulated life with plenty of interaction and mimicing of natural behaviour (it's actually quite easily provided given time and effort).

2. We picked cats that would not "miss out" on being indoor cats.

So you see, it's not as easy as saying "If you have to have indoor cats you shouldn't have one". Because, there are cats that NEED indoor homes, and owners that NEED indoor cats (I would not keep a cat that had to go out - it wouldn't be fair on it to force it to stay in, and it wouldn't be an enjoyable partnership for me worrying about the past). So it suits both ways with our arrangement. I'm happy to have the "rejects" that noone else wants because my situ suits them, and their needs suit us.

Does that make sense? I'm trying to find some common ground!

Edited to add: About 2 hours interactive play per cat per day broken up into smaller sessions - sometimes overlapping if two cats are enjoying competing for my interaction *lol*. It's time consuming but I can do it, so why not

 

[LisaLQ]

And add the fact that I live over her fence, and my dog (as mentionned earlier) is a cat hater with unlimited garden access.

Admittedly, not many cats are dim enough to try coming in our garden. At least not twice. She'd never kill one, but the cats dont know that - quite handy for stopping them crapping in my flowerpots

 

[Captain Retardo]

I haven't read the posts after your reply to my post, KathyM: but in your situation, then I would find nothing wrong with that at all, especially considering the "disabilaties" and experiences your cats have. So I have no objection to your actions.

I'll add some more after I read the posts afterward, so I'll edit this soon.

Edit- I would just like to add that when we got our cat the place that we got it from suggested that we don't let him outside, because he had never seen it before, my mom didn't listen to their comment and let the cat out anyway, now I wouldn't know how my cat would cope with only being able to live indoors, I actually notice a slight behavior change (on the bad side) when my cat is indoors for a little while, but when i see him outside he is just the best cat ever (even though he still is the best cat ever inside too! ) I could never imagine my cat not being able to go outside, he would be absolutely miserable. I just wanted to add that as an anecdote, I realize that your situation (KathyM) is far different)

But if your cats are normal (not disabled) then I don't see how much any of that Pam Johnson Bennet techniques could ever make up the stimulation of outside life.

Wow, lot of posts for about 6 hours or so!

Nice to see another thread turn to petty arguing

Oh god, please don't say that! I like to think of this as an "exchange of people's ideas", and not have the mod delete this thread because I want to have the "full story" on the debate against indoor and outdoor cats.

 

[Captain Retardo]

Much better an indoor cat than a run over outdoor one.

Oh come on, the only run over cats are ones that idiotic people let out in the inner city or near a big road. And those people shouldn't have cats. Just because if you let your cat outside it would immediately get hit by a car dosen't mean other peoples cats would.

 

[Captain Retardo]

You asked about my ideas on fish: Most fish are farmed, and they are too stupid to realize what they are missing.
You asked me about birds: I don't know much about birds, so I'll hopefully do some research and get back to you on that
You asked me about dog: That's why people who own dogs have fences.

I dont think those of you who are anti realise how closed minded you come across. Why cant folks see what is right for some animals, isn't for others? There is nothing cruel in keeping cats indoors, just as there's some cats who need to go outside. Neither is always cruel, neither is always wrong.

If someone locked a cat in one room (as you said in a previous post CR I think, forgive me if I'm wrong) with no toys, no company and no interaction - that would be cruel. If someone locked their cat out in the middle of winter for days on end, that would be cruel. If someone beat their pet - that would be cruel. But keeping one indoors happily and responsibly is not, neither is letting them out in a more rural environment. Saying if you live near a road you shouldn't have a cat is just a little bit over the top, dont you think?

First of all, I'm not saying it's necessarily cruel, Im just saying that the cat will most likely be unhappy because I don't see how you could keep it happy no matter how much of the Pam Johnson Bennet stuff you do. The only way I could see it being happy indoors if it had a whole s#@#load of toys a lot of cat friends, and possibly some dogs.

I can understand KathyM's situation because she has special need cats... In that case it is perfectly fine to have an indoor cat.

And I'm not saying that you can't have a cat if you live by a road, only if you live on a very frequently used road. not some suburban street that gets like only 20 cars a day on it.

And remember, I retook my statement about natural behavior and I realize it was a ridiculous comment (maybe I didn't show that I retook it though, so that's maybe why you didn't know)

And I don't see how I am being irresponsible with letting my cat out, he is neutered and has all of his shots, I am just giving him a quality life.

You just don't realize that cats can be safe outdoors.

Let me ask you a question Lisa: How long do you play with your indoor cat? How many other cats and/or dogs do you have? How many s@#$loads of toys does your cat have? Do you believe that a cat is happier outdoors or indoors if it had a choice?

 

[KathyM]

Moring CR

Thanks for the reply, and I do see where you're coming from. Also I'm really glad you've read about Dodge, Grace and Errol and see where I'm coming from too. I completely agree that some cats are not suited to an indoor life at all, and keeping them as indoor cats would be cruel. However, it is possible for those of us who don't want outdoor cats to find cats that suit our situation, which is mutually beneficial.

I've got an interesting thing to throw in the mix. It's not my personal opinion, but one that has been said to me many times and I wondered what your thoughts were?

It's been said to me on numerous occasions that cats that grow up and go out in the country near a country lane are actually at just as high if not higher risk than those that grow up and go out in the town. The reason for this (apparently)? That cats in the town get more used to the roads, and country cats don't. Then because the speed limit is higher on country lanes, and cats aren't "streetwise", they're hit out of the blue.

I'm not sure I agree with it, but I thought I'd see what you think. It's not a rare opinion but I don't know if it's backed up in fact?

Just to add: It's not Lisa with the indoor cats Pam Johnson Bennett stylee, it's me.

 

[Captain Retardo]

Well I think its bogus. I live in a suburban area though so I don't have much experience with that at all. But where I live the roads aren't really active, one road probably gets 20 cars a day, while the other probably gets 40-50. But I have never seen my cat go near the roads just because he is terrified of their size and the noise they make. He is even afraid of my bike. But then again my cat see's a lot of cars, probably a lot more than a country cat, so I can't be taken with a lot of credibility.
But I believe a city cat is more at risk because he has to become streetwise during which when he is young he could easily be hit by a car. While not many cars drive on country roads.


I know you do the Pam Johnson Bennet style but I just associate it with people who have indoor cats. I totally support you and your cats but I still can't see how people with normal cats couldn't let their cat outdoors.

I am not saying the Pam Johnson Style is bad, I don't even know what it is, but i can still assure you that it is not as good as the stimulation that the outside gives. It maybe be the closest thing to the wild and it is good that you give it to your cats, but then again it is not the stimulation of outside life, which I believe that normal cats should have the oppurtunity to have.

 

[KathyM]

I understand where you're coming from, and thanks for your comments on the country vs. town issue. I'm a bit skeptical of it too, but I thought it was worth posting about.

I am not saying the Pam Johnson Style is bad, I don't even know what it is, but i can still assure you that it is not as good as the stimulation that the outside gives.

I think it's safe to say that using her techniques is not the same as the behaviours they'd carry out outside, but it is of equal "value" when it comes to mental stimulation, and physical exercise.

Saying that, considering Dodge has caught a mouse (must've wandered in from the fields) even though he's an indoor cat, and Grace regularly hunts spiders to torture and play with, I'm not entirely sure what they're missing out on *lol*.

Grace

Dodge

Errol

 

[Synirr]

In the US, vets have stopped giving indoor only cats the FeLV vaccine for the most part.
[...]
Not only that, but they're finding now that the vaccine may last seven or more years, and therefore giving the cat a yearly vaccine and exposing them to the risk of cancer may outweigh the advantaged of getting them vaccinated.

Absolutely! It's silly to get a vaccine in cases where it is not needed or required by law, you are just putting your cat at risk. The risk of sarcoma is extremely low, granted, but when the risk of them getting FeLV is nill, it's not a risk worth taking when you are getting no benefit. Most vaccines we give our pets last at least three years, and many actually last much longer than that. Some states are now changing their laws to require rabies vaccines only once every 3 years rather than yearly because of this. It's the same concept as vaccines for humans, we only get most of those once in our entire lifetime (the exception being flu shots, but these are given yearly because the strain of flu changes yearly). Sometimes the effectiveness of a vaccine dwindles over the years, but in many cases not enough to require it to be re-administered. Until it is scientifically proven that pet vaccines last a lifetime, though, it's best to stick with getting them their needed vaccinations as often as is recommended by your vet.

KathyM and Synirr - My cat is neutered has all his shots, and has always been extremely healthy, yet he has been an outside cat for 10 years, he spends only about 1-2 hours at home...

Hey, don't include me, I never said I have a problem with cats being indoor-outdoor . All my cats have been indoor-outdoor up to this point, actually. My problem comes when being let outdoors is dangerous for the cat, if the cat is not spayed/neutered, or doesn't have the appropriate vaccinations. It's up to the owner to decide if being outside is safe for their cat.

I still can't agree with you on the idea that people shouldn't have a cat if it can't go out...

That's my main thing... it's just as silly as those who think captive birds can't be happy -- just look at my two for proof! It's a lot more difficult to keep an indoor-only cat entertained if you have no other pets it can interact with (though it can be done!), but let me tell ya, if you've got other pets they can keep themselves pretty well entertained! My dog used to play with my dad's cat constantly, and even the animals that didn't get along that well would keep themselves entertained by pestering one-another . Interaction, with you and/or other pets, is key. If you are confident you can provide a good indoor-only home for a cat, with plenty of entertainment and enrichment, I don't see any reason you shouldn't have one.

I currently live in an apartment near a busy road, I hear screeching tires at least once every day. It is mainly college students living in this area, and many of them drive like crazies. There's no way in heck I'd be crazy enough to let a cat outdoors here, even if the shelter I am adopting from allowed their cats to be anything but indoor-only, it would only be a matter of time before they were toast. I do, however, have a great home to offer a cat, with a small, extremely cat-friendly dog and lots of aquariums to provide entertainment when I am not here during the day for work/school. Besides that, as mentioned, the shelter I'm adopting from requires all their cats to be indoor-only, so even if I agreed with all cats absolutely having to have outdoor time, it wouldn't change the fate of the particular cat I am giving a home to.

It's been said to me on numerous occasions that cats that grow up and go out in the country near a country lane are actually at just as high if not higher risk than those that grow up and go out in the town.

Yeah, absolutely not true in my experience. I think I've only ever seen one cat dead on the road to my parents' house in my 20 years of living there. The speed limit on that road is only 35, but many people (including myself) drive 50-60+ on it because it is never patrolled, there is little traffic, and driving 5 miles down a twisty country lane every day at 35 mph is torture . All my cats were very street-smart, we never EVER saw any of them near the road. The cat that lived across the street always looks both ways before crossing, I've seen him do it on many occasions, haha.

 

[Inchworm]

Mod's note:

Thank you all for your thoughtful contributions to this thread.

Unfortunately, I've had to edit an argument out of it and will be forced to lock the entire thread if it continues. This is a forum to exchange ideas and discuss both sides of an issue. When, as occasionally happens, it turns into a conflict of personalities, instead of a polite discussion, the moderator must take action.

I'm sorry if my editing has caused any loss of continuity other than to remove the offensive posts. Please continue with this excellent thread.

Inchworm

 

[Jessica13]

Im not very happy that my original post in this thread has been removed as i was addressing the question about the reasons for/against keeping house cats so i dont understand why my opinion on that is not good enough to be kept in, and yet a discussion about vaccines is

But i have no problem with the rest of it being removed as most of my replies were trying to explain my original post over and over, and trying to stop certain people from being abusive.. Again!!

 

[KathyM]

Thank you very much Inchworm - I was really pleased with the way this thread was going up til that point, and since too.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

What is a domestic cats natural habitat then? the house?

As I've said in the last several pages... the domesticated cat does not have a natural environment, because they are the product of domestication, thus making them a wholly unnatural entity that has no natural place in any environment. (The closest you can get to a natural cat is the African wild cat - Felis silvestris libyca, the most recent ancestor of the domesticated cat... but 8,000 years of domestication have made them very different animals). Which is why they need human help to live even a fraction of their normal lifespan outdoors in the form of feeing and vet care.
I feed feral cat colonies, as well as trap them and have them sterilized and vaccined. They are the perfect example of how unsuited cats are for TRUE wild living. Sure, a cat that comes in at night, stays mostly in its yard, gets cat food daily, has all of its shots, and is spayed is a reasonably healthy animal, but it hardly what truly "wild" cats are like. The ferals I feed are emaciated, disease-ridden, injured from fights, stressed from too many litters, and they all die before their fifth birthday, even with intervention from humans. THAT is a what a domesticated animal looks like "wild."
Yeah, cats are still great hunters and they love the outdoors, but it doesn't mean it is a natural or healty environment for them. I agree that they should have protected, safe acess, just like a dog should have a leash, a cow should have a fence, and a chicken should have a coop. But even someone who loves letting their cat out should be able to see that letting a cat truly go all natural - no vaccines, no spay/neuter, no food - is a horrible thing, which is where the argument about the wild being a cat's "natural" environment falls apart.
Domestication is an agreement between animals and man. Animals give up part of their wildness and resilence in exchange for safety. They give up some of their freedom for a longer life span. They give up some of their instinct for the guarentee of food. When you take domesticated animals and try to make them wild again, they inevitably fail, which is why even outdoor cats still need feeding, vet care, and reproductive restriction to have any quality of life.

where they are miserable?

Claiming indoor cats are "miserable" is subjective and has no factual basis. Many cats who live indoors are very clearly, obviously content, and saying otherwise is a massive insult to everyone with happy, healthy, well-cared for housecats. Just because YOUR cat would be miserable inside doesn't mean EVERY cat would be. That's the problem with the argument about cats "needing" to be outdoors - it is all based in opinion, whereas the argument for keeping them in or enclosed has facts and statistics from credible sources like veterinarians and the department of environmental conservation about health, lifespan, impact on the environment, etc.

and everybody should start helping cats in the wild, because people really f@$&#* them up.

Amen to that! With the peril our wild cats live in, it seems silly to worry about housecats vs. outdoor cats vs. feral cats. Funny side note though, one of the biggest threats to the survival of the european wildcat - an ancestor of the domesticated cat - is interbreeding with feral and free-roaming domesticated cats. D'oh!

As to the ancesters of the domestic cat, which countries domestic cats are you referring to?
Cats were domesticated in many places across the world before such countries had contact with each other- the closet ancester to the domestic cat in england is the scottish wildcat (european wildcat as well) for example and not the african wildcat, there is also the chinese desert cat.
Cat ancestory;

http/news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4585766.stm

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

http/www.users.bigpond.com/berrime/inoutcats.htm

This gives both arguements.

Basically if you live in a safe place, it is perfectly fine to let your cat out!



Cats have and will never be fully domesticated.

I like cats because they are not like people, I like cats because of their sense of power, beauty, and wilderness and adventure, not because they sleep on the bed like humans, If I wanted a cat that acted like a person, I would have rather made another friend!



Please read the link that I posted on top, it is very good and gives good arguements for both sides, I think youll know where I'm coming from after reading it. Also please read the link that I posted beneath

http/www.users.bigpond.com/berrime/wildcats.htm

Captain retardo, have you actually read the first link through? I have never read such a load of b*ll*cks. The fact that if you read its "truth about cats and wildlife article" and states such facts (which are not real facts or statistics at all) like "Only 4% of domestic cats catch native birds" or "50% of domestic cats do not hunt at all" and that cats "have an integral part to play in the balance of many ecosystems even in countries like Australia" when in reality they are one of the main causes of the decline of various types of native animals in Australia- they are a serious case of a non-native animal decimating local native wildlife.
Other peices of (insert swear word here) absolutely non-true info the article states like;

"Normal domestic cats with some hunting experience can kill a rabbit or hare almost equal to their own weight (personal observation)"

Cats do not hunt hares- if you have ever seen a hare, you will note that it is bigger, faster and stronger tahn a cat- cats simply don't hunt hares. Saying that because cats may kill baby rabbits justifies having them in australia is utter nonsense as these are two different problems and cats will never kill off the rabbit population problem anyway. They are both devastating animals to the continent and should be removed.

It is a fact that in the UK, the domestic cat population is as devasting to our native songbird population as modern farming practises are;

http/news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/5026222.stm

"The backyard feeding of native birds does neither birds nor cats any favours, unless the birds are starving due to adverse climatic conditions"

Well its funny that the article mentions that, because in reality, many birds are making a comeback in populations due to bird feeders particually goldfinches;

http/news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4779170.stm

"Does a feral cat “problemâ€￾ even exist? Opinions differ widely because there is no way of calculating what if any damage is done to the ecology by feral cats except on islands and in fragmented habitat situations. Nor is there any real way of telling how much damage is caused by cats and how much by other predators. And is it all “damageâ€￾ anyway? Cats may be just as important to long-term ecological balance as other species. In Australia in the early 1800s, cats were deliberately released into the wild to control wildlife species considered undesirable at that time. The descendants of these cats and others that might have been in Australia for up to two centuries before that would certainly be part of natural ecosystems by now"


a. A feral cat population problem does exist in many countries across the world. And yes it is damaging.
b. Cat populations are grosely large due to human intervention right now, domestic cats simply would not exist in the numbers they are currently right now if it weren't for us. There are too many for any ecosystem to cope with.
c. Cats are a major threat to australian wildlife since they have no predators themselves and the climate allows them to breed continuously throughout the year, and the native wildlife has no instincts or defenses to protect themselves against cats. It takes thousands of years, not a couple of hundred, for non-native species to become accustomed and a part of natural ecosystems.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Anyways...
My true thoughts and feelings on this? Well i thought about many of these factors when it came to getting a pet cat when i bought my house last year and i ended up not getting one, my reasons?

a. I believe cats do better when allowed outdoors on a regular basis, as long as the surrounding area is safe and doesn't have any issues like very busy roads or high traffic. Because i live very near the town centre, keeping a cat is risky.
If you cannot let your cat out safely at anytime, i don't think you should have a cat at all.
Otherwise its like saying "i really, really want a pony but i don't have a feild to let it graze in so i'll just keep it in a stable its whole life and keep it amused with some toys".
Basically, if you cannot your pet a suitable habitat to live in, i don't think you should have one at all. My mum currently has two farm cats and they spend all of their time roaming outdoors except when they sleep, and they sleep very little at that. That average life expectancy of all my mums cats she has had during my lifetime or before have lived to 17 years old or much more.

b. There are already many cats in my area- it almost seems like everyone in my area has a pet cat or two. Every night if you stay out long enough, you can hear cats fighting and wailing.
As to the sociability of cats- in my opinion it varies, but in my experience cats do not like to hang around each other all the time if they can help it and are generally unsociable animals like their ancester cats like the scottish wildcat; even domestic cats, no matter how bred they are to tolerate each other, they will always retain a certain amount of intolerance of each other. They need territory- i think it would be unfair to stick another cat in my area because everytime it went out it would be constantly fighting with other cats over scraps or territory.

c. Cats have a large impact on wildlife- there is no rat or mouse problem in my area, there are too many cats for any to settle in, so the cats just hunt the birds. I remember the first time i went to a party at my neighbours, her cat brought a half alive bird in for her.
Cats kill far more than what they eat- it doesn't matter how much you feed your cat, it will hunt regardless because it is an animal controlled by its instincts.
I don't want a cat because i know that it will kill thousands of animals during its lifetime.