Help Reading This Ph And Loss Of Fish After Water Changes

[Byron]

 

Fish don't need to actually die to be harmed by chemicals.  And no one here can prove their fish are not affected in some way by Excel.  This approach is like a person who decides to smoke because it is safe for some people; some day it will likely catch you up, and it is not pleasant.  It's your life, and your fish.
 
Edit.  Something occurred to me as I was thinking about this, and I may be able to put this in a more understandable form.  
 
I have been dealing with cancer for nine years now.  Without going into details, it is not a cancer that is likely to kill me, unless I ignored it, and it is currently in remission, though it has done this a couple times previously and come back.  But for the present it is in remission and there is no reason why I should not have a relatively normal lifespan (I'm in my mid-60's now).  But something has been very evident over the past four years, and that is the significant impact this has made on my general well-being.  There is no doubt at all but that I have been weakened by this, physically and mentally, from both the cancer itself and the very unpleasant treatments.  My life today is a fraction of what it was nine years ago.  I am still alive, but I no not have the physical energy nor the enthusiasm that I did previously.  Anyone seeing me would never realise this, as I appear much the same as I was before this occurred.  But it has taken a serious toll on my life.
 
There is no logical reason to assume anything different with fish.  Nitrates are believed by many to be "harmless," but reliable sources know we are very wrong in thinking this.  And the most obvious effect is a general weakening of the fish.  Life may go on, externally unchanged to us, but the fish has had a serious issue affect it.  There is no logical reason why dumping needless chemicals, and especially those that are so obviously dangerously toxic, into the fish's environment knowing it will get inside the fish.  A more lush plant is not worth the risk to the fish.
 
Byron.

Byron, 
I just noticed this edit you made...I hadn't seen it until now.
 
I'm really sorry for what you've gone (and are still going) thru.
 
I lost both of my parents to cancer by the time I was 25 (I'm now 43).  My Mom battled it for 14 years.  The toll it took on her life was insane...to say the least.  And it took a toll on all of us that loved her.  
My Dad only found out about his cancer 6 months before he passed (I assume he had it for quite a while).   
 
Anyway I understand what you're saying and the comparison that you're making.  And any pets that we may have rely on us to keep them healthy and safe since they can't do it for themselves.  
 
Although I suppose we don't always see or realize the things causing us harm.  But the better informed we are about dangers...the better we all are.
 
Good luck with everything and congratulations on being a survivor.
 

 
Thank you very much for your most kind words and thoughts.  I'm lucky in one sense, that it is not life-threatening and was caught early enough.  B.

 

[thrujenseyes]

 

 
Ok, bear with me a minute...
So once the PH stabilizes (does that mean neutral water of 7ph or 7 and higher)?  And you said the shell will only have effect if the PH is above 7...?  That confuses me, does that mean it will not affect my super acidic water of 6.4?  Or it will just stop adding hardness after it reaches 7?
I'm sorry for so many questions.  I'm just trying to understand the best I can.

Sorry I made a typo.  Based on my understanding the shell will dissolve (slowly in acidic water and not in basic water.  Meaning the shell will only dissolve if the ph is Below 7  It will stop dissolving at about a pH of 7.    So it only has an effect if the ph is below 7.  
 
One thing to keep in mind we don't yet know what is in your water.  It is possible that there is something in there that will prevent the PH from reaching 7.  Hopefully continued use of RO water will eventually get you to a PH of 7.

 
I was just researching test strips since I'm doing so many testings lately and will continue since my water has been such a mess.  It would be much easier to use strips instead of the API freshwater kit that I currently use.  Plus I'm down to three test tubes and it's a real pain.
 
Anyway I remembered you saying the tetra 6 in 1 were good and accurate.  I noticed they do not have ammonia on the strip.  Is it hard to find a strip that has the others plus ammonia...or are they not accurate?
 
Or should I just stick with the API and get myself some more test tubes (which it seems you can only buy in a pack of 24?!?).

When I had to buy a replacement tube I purchased thesehttps/www.amazon.com/LaMotte-0898-Glass-Test-Capacity/dp/B00EA904Y4/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1472785640&sr=8-1&keywords=glass+test+tube+5ml+graduation
 
You will probably not find a strip with ammonia and other test.  The Tetra Ammonia test strip needs to be exposed to water for about 10 seconds.  The tetra 6 in 1 strips in comparison are only exposed to tank water for 1/2 to 1 second.  I have never used any other brand than tetra so there might be strips out there that work differently and might include other tests with ammonia.  However that said I found the Tetra ammonia strips hard to use.  The green shading is difficult to match to the chart and if you don't read them right away you might get a false positive.  I would keep your current test kit it.  It is still good and it can be used to verify the strip results.  If after time they continue to work well for your you can put the API kit on the shelf and just use the strips.  
 
The biggest factors affecting accuracy is:
1) following the instructions correctly.  For the strips you put them in the water vertically and then pull them vertically.  The strips should be exposed to water for less than one second.   In fact I have found a 0.5 second exposure to water works well.  So basically you stab the water and yank the strip out of the tank fast.
2) the ability of the person to match the color with the reference chart.  If you are color blind conventional color tests will not work.
3) the spectrum of the light when the test is compared to the reference chart.  Comparing the color with a chart will give you best results under indirect outdoor light.  Some colors will not show up well under interior lights.
 
In reality standard aquarium test are really not very accurate.  They are only accurate  enough to do the job .  If you want accuracy other methods are better and typically cost more.  however beyond accuracy some people just prefer liquids over strips and some prefer electric meters despite the higher cost. Each type of test has its positives and negatives.  Also there is noting wrong with having multiple different test on hand. In fact I think it is a good idea. If you get a reading that looks wrong you can always use a different test to verify the results.
 
There are a couple of other options to consider:
 
JBL now sells test strips that can be read by a cell phone app.https/www.amazon.com/JBL-Smartphone-Evaluation-Freshwater-Aquarium/dp/B00R5S9EQ6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1472792177&sr=8-1&keywords=Jbl+test+strips
I have not used them so I don't know how well they work.
 
I personally like these http/hannainst.com/products/checker-colorimeters/hi700-ammonia-lr.html highly accurate, cost more and no color charts. I currently own 3.  Each only tests one water parameter and there are about 20 different tests available http/hannainst.com/products/checker-colorimeters.html
 
Electric PH meters http/hannainst.com/categories/ph-checkers-for-education.html
I purchased one for $40.  However you need to also buy calibration fluids, storage fluids, and cleaning fluids which probably cost me another $20.
 
Total Dissolved Solids meter http/hannainst.com/products/testers/primo-tds-tester.html
This measures all solids in water while GH reads mainly calcium and magnesium. The two tests are not directly comparable but both are useful.  Also needs calibration fluids but in general only need vibration 1 to 3 times a year.
 


Wow...excellent info and since I've become quite the pro at api water testing ...I will stick with that and I will purchase those tubes that you lead me to on amazon (thank you).
 
Since I still have a week to go until the water company comes out..I've been dreading my next water change and testing constantly to see when it will be needed.
 
I just tested now (one week from last water change where I added about 30% RO water).
 
PH = remains stable at 6.4 (still too low but steady ...even since adding the snail sea shell on Thursday ...two days ago) ...btw my tank seems to be happier than in a long time.  Fish are so active and seem very happy...fins look great (not tucked down) even the snail is out and about (which he hasn't been for a while).  my amano shrimp is always super active and happy.
 
Ammonia = 0
 
Nitrites = 0
 
Nitrates = 5.0
 
since things are steady and no rises in anything .... should I hold off on water change?
 
I did purchase more RO water to have on hand and also a tube of Flourish Comprehensive (for the necessary minerals).  They did not have crushed coral so I will purchase today.
 
The man at this LFS (different than last) told me that everyone from my area on private wells has the same issue of inconsistent readings and that I need to purchase  http/www.seachem.com/alkaline-buffer.php or I'll never have consistency.  He said corals and such will raise levels but they will keep falling unless I use this stuff because of my alkalinity problem.....?!
 
I did not purchase and wanted to see read up on it myself.  And also ask the water people about all of this when they come out.  
 
Oh and last week when I did all of my testing....I had tested a gallon of treated tap water and the ph read 7.6.  I was so thrilled that I kept the water.  So I'm assuming I can mix this with the RO to bump up the ph a bit for my next water change?!?  
 
I'm sorry I keep posting so much information and so many questions but I am learning so much and it's all helping me a ton and I truly appreciate it!!!

 

[Byron]

Before resorting to expensive chemicals to "buffer" or whatever they claim to do, wait until you know exactly what your water has in it.  There is almost certainly more at play here than simply pH.  Plus there is the issue of the aparatus that we previously determined was likely adding some chemical to the water killing fish after the water changes.  The pH alone may not turn out to be an issue.  Once an aquarium becomes relatively stable biologically, water changes using different pH water normally don't impact things much.  But we are still making assumptions without all the data.
 
It is OK to mix in that water, provided it did not go through the "bullet" contraption.
 
Water changes should be once a week, under normal circumstances.  The fewer fish and with live plants gives you some elbow room, so rather than rock the boat it might be best to let things sit for the present.
 
Byron.

 

[thrujenseyes]

Before resorting to expensive chemicals to "buffer" or whatever they claim to do, wait until you know exactly what your water has in it.  There is almost certainly more at play here than simply pH.  Plus there is the issue of the aparatus that we previously determined was likely adding some chemical to the water killing fish after the water changes.  The pH alone may not turn out to be an issue.  Once an aquarium becomes relatively stable biologically, water changes using different pH water normally don't impact things much.  But we are still making assumptions without all the data.
 
It is OK to mix in that water, provided it did not go through the "bullet" contraption.
 
Water changes should be once a week, under normal circumstances.  The fewer fish and with live plants gives you some elbow room, so rather than rock the boat it might be best to let things sit for the present.
 
Byron.

Will do Byron!  I just wanted to make sure I was ok waiting on my water change at least until I see some levels rise into not great territory (and as of now ...they're still copacetic).
 
I was happy to hear you say "rather not rock the boat".  
 
I hit a few stores today and no one had any crushed coral...seems strange?!
 
I'll get from amazon since I'll be ordering some replacement test tubes anyway.
 
Goodnight

 
My kitchen island has become a regular science lab 

 

[StevenF]

 
The man at this LFS (different than last) told me that everyone from my area on private wells has the same issue of inconsistent readings and that I need to purchase  http/www.seachem.c...line-buffer.php or I'll never have consistency.  He said corals and such will raise levels but they will keep falling unless I use this stuff because of my alkalinity problem.....?!

he is a little hight and wrong in that statement.  When plants grow they absorb potassium, calcium, and magnesium from the water.  If this is not replaced your alkalinity and PH will fall.  So he is correct there.  However in your case you have shell in the aquarium.  As the plants remove calcium and magnesium and potassium the shell will start to dissolve faster and compensate .  As a result the PH and KH should then stay stable.  So He is wrong about corals and shells.  As long as you add more crushed coral or shells to replace the material that has dissolved away your PH should stay stable.  
 
As barons advice ,I don't see a reason at this time to buy the Sachem product.  Your current PH readings are safe.  Most fish can handle a PH of 6. You can also mix the water that has been in the bucket for a week with the RO water.  to lengthen the adjustment time the fish will have to 100% mineralized RO water.
 
crushed coral is commonly sold alongside aquarium gravel by the pound.For your use get the smallest bag you can find which I suspect is 1 pound.  For your sachem flourish be advised that the stuff does have a shelf life.  I recommend putting about 1cup in a small pill bottle and freezing the rest.  On amazon you should be able to find crushed coral most test kits and various syringes which can be used to accurately measure the fertilizer and other water treatments.
 
As to potassium.  The common alkaline form that is added to water is potassium carbonate.  It is similar to sodium bicarbonate (backing soda) and has a strong affect on PH and alkalinity (stronger then the shells)  All forms of sodium and potassium carbonates are highly water soluble and will need regular replenishment as they are depleted.  From my google search the Sachem product is mix of sodium, potassium, and magnesium carbonate
 
crushed coral is commonly sold alongside aquarium gravel by the pound.For your use get the smallest bag you can find which I suspect is 1 pound.  For your sachem flourish be advised that the stuff does have a shelf life.  I recommend putting about 1cup in a small pill bottle and freezing the rest.  On amazon you should be able to find crushed coral most test kits and various syringes which can be used to accurately measure the fertilizer and other water treatments.

 

[thrujenseyes]

 

 
The man at this LFS (different than last) told me that everyone from my area on private wells has the same issue of inconsistent readings and that I need to purchase  http/www.seachem.c...line-buffer.php or I'll never have consistency.  He said corals and such will raise levels but they will keep falling unless I use this stuff because of my alkalinity problem.....?!

he is a little hight and wrong in that statement.  When plants grow they absorb potassium, calcium, and magnesium from the water.  If this is not replaced your alkalinity and PH will fall.  So he is correct there.  However in your case you have shell in the aquarium.  As the plants remove calcium and magnesium and potassium the shell will start to dissolve faster and compensate .  As a result the PH and KH should then stay stable.  So He is wrong about corals and shells.  As long as you add more crushed coral or shells to replace the material that has dissolved away your PH should stay stable.  
 
Ok...I think I'm starting to understand the alkalinity a little better.   So because I have a jungle in my tiny tank...that can be depleting potassium, calcium and magnesium because it's absorbing it and until the shell I have not replaced what the plants have used up?
 
As barons advice ,I don't see a reason at this time to buy the Sachem product.  Your current PH readings are safe.  Most fish can handle a PH of 6. You can also mix the water that has been in the bucket for a week with the RO water.  to lengthen the adjustment time the fish will have to 100% mineralized RO water.
 
crushed coral is commonly sold alongside aquarium gravel by the pound.For your use get the smallest bag you can find which I suspect is 1 pound.  For your sachem flourish be advised that the stuff does have a shelf life.  I recommend putting about 1cup in a small pill bottle and freezing the rest.  On amazon you should be able to find crushed coral most test kits and various syringes which can be used to accurately measure the fertilizer and other water treatments.
 
Oh excellent point and suggestion as a 6 gallon tank a bottle will last me well past the expiration date!  Which makes me think I should check my other things!
 
As for the syringe I have a real one from my vet...so I'm good there.  But amazon sells them?!  Gee....that's creepy.
 
As to potassium.  The common alkaline form that is added to water is potassium carbonate.  It is similar to sodium bicarbonate (backing soda) and has a strong affect on PH and alkalinity (stronger then the shells)  All forms of sodium and potassium carbonates are highly water soluble and will need regular replenishment as they are depleted.  From my google search the Sachem product is mix of sodium, potassium, and magnesium carbonate
 
crushed coral is commonly sold alongside aquarium gravel by the pound.For your use get the smallest bag you can find which I suspect is 1 pound.  For your sachem flourish be advised that the stuff does have a shelf life.  I recommend putting about 1cup in a small pill bottle and freezing the rest.  On amazon you should be able to find crushed coral most test kits and various syringes which can be used to accurately measure the fertilizer and other water treatments.
 
Off to amazon for my crushed coral and test tubes!  Thanks again!.....
.....
I just went to order the tubes and coral and my total was astronomical...
they charge $10.16 PER TEST TUBE?!?!?!?
 

 

[Byron]

What test tubes are these?  Most aquarium test kits come with a tube.

 

[thrujenseyes]

What test tubes are these?  Most aquarium test kits come with a tube.

The api freshwater test kit (comes with 4).  I broke one (in the sink) so I wanted to purchase some replacements to make testing easier but they only sell them in a pack of 24?!
 
So Steven suggested a different type but they want 10 bucks a tube?!?  Insane!  
 
Most that I've looked at on amazon have a rounded bottom.  And are not marked.  I know I can mark by measuring 5ml and using a sharpie but I wanted it all right there and ready for me...
 
I'll probably buy the replacement kit...just so I have them.

 

[marnold00]

What test tubes are these?  Most aquarium test kits come with a tube.

The api freshwater test kit (comes with 4).  I broke one (in the sink) so I wanted to purchase some replacements to make testing easier but they only sell them in a pack of 24?!
 
So Steven suggested a different type but they want 10 bucks a tube?!?  Insane!  
 
Most that I've looked at on amazon have a rounded bottom.  And are not marked.  I know I can mark by measuring 5ml and using a sharpie but I wanted it all right there and ready for me...
 
I'll probably buy the replacement kit...just so I have them.

You could look for plastic tubes? Also if you look around you should be able to pick up a 5 or 10ml syringe pretty cheap - which will also add consistency to your tests.

Just bear in mind if the diameter of the tube is larger, then the resultant colour of the test results will be darker, and lighter if the tube is thinner (assuming my head is working correctly at 12:45am...)

 

[Mark Z.]

http/www.ebay.com/itm/Liquid-Test-Kit-Sample-Tube-Glass-Vial-Replacement-Plastic-Cap-API-All-Master-/301095300760
 

 

[thrujenseyes]

http/www.ebay.com/itm/Liquid-Test-Kit-Sample-Tube-Glass-Vial-Replacement-Plastic-Cap-API-All-Master-/301095300760
 

 
Perfect!!!  Thanks Mark!

 

 

What test tubes are these?  Most aquarium test kits come with a tube.

The api freshwater test kit (comes with 4).  I broke one (in the sink) so I wanted to purchase some replacements to make testing easier but they only sell them in a pack of 24?!
 
So Steven suggested a different type but they want 10 bucks a tube?!?  Insane!  
 
Most that I've looked at on amazon have a rounded bottom.  And are not marked.  I know I can mark by measuring 5ml and using a sharpie but I wanted it all right there and ready for me...
 
I'll probably buy the replacement kit...just so I have them.

You could look for plastic tubes? Also if you look around you should be able to pick up a 5 or 10ml syringe pretty cheap - which will also add consistency to your tests.

Just bear in mind if the diameter of the tube is larger, then the resultant colour of the test results will be darker, and lighter if the tube is thinner (assuming my head is working correctly at 12:45am...)
 


I'd be a little hesitant to use plastic as I'm not sure how the chemicals deal with that compared to glass?!  But Mark Z added the perfect link...so I'm all goo!
 
Oh and I do have the syringes!!!
 
I want to see fish pics soon from you!!!

 

[thrujenseyes]

It has been two weeks since a water change (trying to hold out as that's when I was losing fish).
 
My numbers remained steady all but my PH which slowly rose to a 6.6 (happy about that)
the amonia remained 0
the nitrite remained 0 
and nitrate remained 5.0
 
I figured by two weeks they needed a water change even if things didn't seem dangerous?  Wasn't sure.
 
I had the RO water that was treated with a shell and flourish comprehensive (for added minerals lacking in RO)
This was mixed with about 15% treated well water that I'd tested two weeks ago that had a ph of 7.6
Did about a 30% water change with above mixture.
 
Fingers crossed that all will be well.
Water people come out Monday and hopefully I'll have some answers and a game plan.

 

[marnold00]

It has been two weeks since a water change (trying to hold out as that's when I was losing fish).
 
My numbers remained steady all but my PH which slowly rose to a 6.6 (happy about that)
the amonia remained 0
the nitrite remained 0 
and nitrate remained 5.0
 
I figured by two weeks they needed a water change even if things didn't seem dangerous?  Wasn't sure.
 
I had the RO water that was treated with a shell and flourish comprehensive (for added minerals lacking in RO)
This was mixed with about 15% treated well water that I'd tested two weeks ago that had a ph of 7.6
Did about a 30% water change with above mixture.
 
Fingers crossed that all will be well.
Water people come out Monday and hopefully I'll have some answers and a game plan.

Fingers crossed!

A quick warning with RO which i forgot to mention. Yours might not be the same, but if the RO is fresh at my store then it comes out at about 8 degrees C... Obviously i cant do a big water change immediately with that. I partially submerge the barrel in warm water in the bath for a while i leave the cap above the surface of the water incase the seal isnt perfect.

 

[thrujenseyes]

 

It has been two weeks since a water change (trying to hold out as that's when I was losing fish).
 
My numbers remained steady all but my PH which slowly rose to a 6.6 (happy about that)
the amonia remained 0
the nitrite remained 0 
and nitrate remained 5.0
 
I figured by two weeks they needed a water change even if things didn't seem dangerous?  Wasn't sure.
 
I had the RO water that was treated with a shell and flourish comprehensive (for added minerals lacking in RO)
This was mixed with about 15% treated well water that I'd tested two weeks ago that had a ph of 7.6
Did about a 30% water change with above mixture.
 
Fingers crossed that all will be well.
Water people come out Monday and hopefully I'll have some answers and a game plan.

Fingers crossed!

A quick warning with RO which i forgot to mention. Yours might not be the same, but if the RO is fresh at my store then it comes out at about 8 degrees C... Obviously i cant do a big water change immediately with that. I partially submerge the barrel in warm water in the bath for a while

i leave the cap above the surface of the water incase the seal isnt perfect.
 

I had mine sitting for about a week in a 5 gallon water jug.  So I was all set but thanks for the heads up!
 
Everyone is doing well today (knock wood).
 
I will test soon to see what my ph and such are.  But the fact that no one is looking bad is a plus and even bigger plus that noone is dead!  
 
I woke a month or so ago after a water change to find my amano shrimp eating one of my poor little endlers that must have kicked it over night because of a water change (before I'd realized all of these water problems)  
So it was nice to wake to peace and harmony

 

[thrujenseyes]

All is well after water change and PH is up to 6.8