Help Reading This Ph And Loss Of Fish After Water Changes

[thrujenseyes]

I found it very useful marnold!  I appreciate the explanation, especially because I was super confused by the api chart on the PH and High Range PH.
I try to absorb as much as I can from this site but like I've said before I don't have a very scientific brain and it's rough for me to understand.  
I do write it all down in a journal so I can keep track.  
 
When I was cycling I had a ginormous chart that I kept on the wall and wrote on everyday.  It helped me a lot.
 
And I thought I was all set on the RO and or distilled water but Byron pointed out that would be depleting my plants and crustaceans of needed minerals.  
 
So I am letting a bucket of tap sit out ....
I will test for ammonia, ph and nitrates and nitrites ....
then I will treat with prime and see what I have.
 
If it's just low PH from there I will look into fish that will do well in that ph area (although I'm not sure there are any small enough ....I only have a 6 gallon fluval edge.  I chose endlers because of their size and fun energetic nature).
 
If it's more than just the PH maybe I will go forward with RO and or Distilled but add in a mineral source...I think some have said that the Seachem Flourish will do.

 

[marnold00]

You can maybe also look in to different substrates etc. I get the impression that people using crushed coral in their substrate isnt at all unusual.

Things such as coral and shells have the affect of hardening water, which tends to have a direct correlation with raising the pH.

Some rocks will also have this affect

Without sounding like im scrubbing up to byron but he made good points on my earlier threads about keeping everything steady and working with what you have.

You could push the pH up to 7 but then say if its back down to 6 the next day and then you boost it back upbto 7 then youll have some sad fishies.

An issue with RO bought from a shop is that it may not be feasible to do an emergency water change.


As to what fish will be suitable im afraid i am not much help with that!

 

[Byron]

Seachem Flourish will provide nutrients for plants, but not adequate minerals for fish requiring them in the water.  But rather than get too complicated, let's wait and see what transpires.  You really have two very different issues, the ammonia in the source water and the pH.
 
The ammonia may or maynot need action, depending the level (which hasn't yet been mentioned here).  So I'll leave that.
 
The pH is obviously acidic, and the GH is thus likely going to be low (= soft water) but we haven't that number either.  But you did mention fish small enough, and here there are many.  It is much easier to find "nano" type fish (meaning fish that will suit a smaller tank) with soft water than with harder water.
 
Tank is 6 gallons.  Have a look at the dwarf rasbora in the genus Boraras.  Boraras brigittae is frequently seen in NA, B. maculatus and one or two other species perhaps less often.  A group of 7-10 of one of these; data on B. brigittae here:
http/www.seriouslyfish.com/species/boraras-brigittae/
 
Another species, this one a tetra from SA, is the Ember Tetra, Hyphessobrycon amandae, also in a group of 7-9:
http/www.seriouslyfish.com/species/hyphessobrycon-amandae/
 
There are three dwarf cory species, Corydoras pygmaeus, C. hastatus, and C. habrosus.  A group of 7-9 of one of these could work with either of the above.
 
The above are more frequently seen in the hobby, but there are others if one looks.
 
Byron.

 

[thrujenseyes]

True Marnold, I don't want to yo yo the PH and have sad fish.  I feel bad enough that I have the few remaining living in a PH that they don't like.
 
Can RO be mixed with Distilled?  Is it similar?  I tried to read the meaning of RO water and it confused the living crap out of me.
 
It didn't help to have the guy at the LFS tell me that RO is the way to go and it solves everything....he basically said it's liquid gold and in my mind I thought well what couldn't live and flourish in liquid gold?!?!
 
You should have seen me driving an entire hour home trying not to spill any of this glorious water.  Goodness...what an idiot!

 

[marnold00]

So the distilling process is essentially where the water is heated and evapourates as water vapour. This water vapour is then cooled and collected.

The idea behind this is that everything that isnt water is left behind.

Being truthful i dont really know how RO works but i treat it as having the same end results. It removes everything else from the water, thus making it pure.


Now the RO water that my LFS sells has also been mineralised (had all the good bits of the water added back in). The water they sell has a pH of about 7.4 and is in the middle ground for all hardness scales.

My friend uses this in his 80l tank and doesnt touch the tap water. All of his plants flourish without anything else added. There is a chance that your LFS water is mineralised also so it could be worth finding out - just bear in mind that the LFS will be looking to make the sale.

Please dont feel like youve been taken for a mug with this. If only you knew how much ive spent on rubbish over this fish tank...

If you see fish that are suitable water and you are really enthused by them, then see the money you spent on your liquid gold as a learning experience and stick with the tap water.

I personally am being a bit of an idiot and going down the RO line because my water is hard enough to stand a spoon up in it... I basically just was not as enthralled by the fish. At the end of the day if you arent enthusiastic then the same effort wont be put in. Thats how humans work. I accept that ive caused lots more hassle and work for myself, but for me itll bring more satisfaction out of the hobby

 

[thrujenseyes]

Byron, thanks for the great fish suggestions!  I will definitely look into once I get things square with the water.
 
I will let my tap sit 24 hours, I will test plain and then I will test after I treat with Prime to see if it's just a PH issue I will look into those fish suggestions for sure!
 
If it's a bigger issue than just soft water I will do RO plus nutrients for the meanwhile until the water company comes out and gives us our numbers and a game plan.

So the distilling process is essentially where the water is heated and evapourates as water vapour. This water vapour is then cooled and collected.

The idea behind this is that everything that isnt water is left behind.

Being truthful i dont really know how RO works but i treat it as having the same end results. It removes everything else from the water, thus making it pure.


Now the RO water that my LFS sells has also been mineralised (had all the good bits of the water added back in). The water they sell has a pH of about 7.4 and is in the middle ground for all hardness scales.

My friend uses this in his 80l tank and doesnt touch the tap water. All of his plants flourish without anything else added. There is a chance that your LFS water is mineralised also so it could be worth finding out - just bear in mind that the LFS will be looking to make the sale.

Oh wow...I don't know if they mineralize it?!?  I will definitely find out!  That sure would be helpful!

 

[marnold00]

You replied to quickly! I added a few lines to my last post. Im going to clock off from this topic now. I found that there can be a case of conflicting advice and information overload... So its best for me to leave it with the experienced guys send pics of your new happy fish when this is sorted!

 

[thrujenseyes]

Please dont feel like youve been taken for a mug with this. If only you knew how much ive spent on rubbish over this fish tank...

If you see fish that are suitable water and you are really enthused by them, then see the money you spent on your liquid gold as a learning experience and stick with the tap water.

I personally am being a bit of an idiot and going down the RO line because my water is hard enough to stand a spoon up in it... I basically just was not as enthralled by the fish. At the end of the day if you arent enthusiastic then the same effort wont be put in. Thats how humans work. I accept that ive caused lots more hassle and work for myself, but for me itll bring more satisfaction out of the hobby
 
 

That's funny "taken for a mug" I definitely feel that way every time I leave the LFS, although I was proud that I declined the chemicals to up the PH.  And my proud behind drove an hour home trying not to spill my liquid gold!  haha
 
Oh well..
 
And I completely agree that we need to be enthralled by the fish we keep...although I'm fairly certain I can be enthralled by any living creature as I'm a bit of a bleeding heart when it comes to any animal big, small, hairy, scaley etc....

You replied to quickly! I added a few lines to my last post. Im going to clock off from this topic now. I found that there can be a case of conflicting advice and information overload... So its best for me to leave it with the experienced guys

send pics of your new happy fish when this is sorted!

Thank you and will do marnold
 
I really appreciate it!

 

[StevenF]

 
Nor did I want to fuss with how much crushed coral I'd need to add
plus I just don't have the room to hang little bags of anything anywhere in a 6 gallon.

Crushed coral and the shells you ave are made from calcium carbonate and magnesium carbonate that the animal absorbed from water.  it is essentially the same stuff that makes up concrete.  The maximum amount that can dissolve in non acidic water is about 22 PPM which equals 22 milligrams per later. Assuming you do a 100% water change once per week.  you would need 25 grams of sea shells or 0.9 ounces.  which is about 1/8 cup of carbonate.
 
 
but your will not be doing that many 100% water changes.  You will probably do about half of that.You might dissolve about one  shell every 2 years or about 1/16 cub of crushed coral per year.  you could easily hide a shell behind the wood in your tank.  Or maybe you could put 1/8 cup of crushed coral in your filter. You have the room.  Or you could put one in your bucket of RO water  a day before you add it to the tank.Then one shell in the aquarium would keep your calcium and magnesium levels stable in the aquarium (plant also need magnesium and calcium).  
 
As I stated earlier RO water needs to be remineralize other wise your plants will probably die.  I use RO water in my tank and I remineralize it with Seachem Flourish Comprehensive quite successfully. I also have a couple of small snail shells in the tank that help keep the alkalinity and and hardness stable at soft water levels.  I had hopped that you wouldn't have to use RO water but with ammonia in your well it's your only choice.  I suspect it may take some time to fix your well.
 
 
However the water may now be too soft for your remaining Endlers.  Seachem sells replenish for hardening RO water but it needs to be used with Flourish Comprehensive and you need a GH test kit..  I didn't want to make a list of things for your to buy but that appears to be happening.  The only other option I can think of is to rehome your remaining Endlers and repopulate the tank with a soft water loving fish.
 

 
So the distilling process is essentially where the water is heated and evaporates as water vapour. This water vapour is then cooled and collected.

The idea behind this is that everything that isn't water is left behind.

Being truthful i don't really know how RO works but i treat it as having the same end results. It removes everything else from the water, thus making it pure.

RO water is made by pushing water through a special filter that allows water to pass through.  However the RO filter blocks the minerals.  RO water is the same as distilled but less energy is needed to make it (it takes a lot of energy to evaporate water and then cool it back into a liquid).  Rain falling through pollution free air is the same as RO and distilled water.

 

[thrujenseyes]

 

 
Nor did I want to fuss with how much crushed coral I'd need to add
plus I just don't have the room to hang little bags of anything anywhere in a 6 gallon.

Crushed coral and the shells you ave are made from calcium carbonate and magnesium carbonate that the animal absorbed from water.  it is essentially the same stuff that makes up concrete.  The maximum amount that can dissolve in non acidic water is about 22 PPM which equals 22 milligrams per later. Assuming you do a 100% water change once per week.  you would need 25 grams of sea shells or 0.9 ounces.  which is about 1/8 cup of carbonate.
 
 
but your will not be doing that many 100% water changes.  You will probably do about half of that.You might dissolve about one  shell every 2 years or about 1/16 cub of crushed coral per year.  you could easily hide a shell behind the wood in your tank.  Or maybe you could put 1/8 cup of crushed coral in your filter. You have the room.  Or you could put one in your bucket of RO water  a day before you add it to the tank.Then one shell in the aquarium would keep your calcium and magnesium levels stable in the aquarium (plant also need magnesium and calcium).  
 
As I stated earlier RO water needs to be remineralize other wise your plants will probably die.  I use RO water in my tank and I remineralize it with Seachem Flourish Comprehensive quite successfully. I also have a couple of small snail shells in the tank that help keep the alkalinity and and hardness stable at soft water levels.  I had hopped that you wouldn't have to use RO water but with ammonia in your well it's your only choice.  I suspect it may take some time to fix your well.
 
 
However the water may now be too soft for your remaining Endlers.  Seachem sells replenish for hardening RO water but it needs to be used with Flourish Comprehensive and you need a GH test kit..  I didn't want to make a list of things for your to buy but that appears to be happening.  The only other option I can think of is to rehome your remaining Endlers and repopulate the tank with a soft water loving fish.
 

 
So the distilling process is essentially where the water is heated and evaporates as water vapour. This water vapour is then cooled and collected.

The idea behind this is that everything that isn't water is left behind.

Being truthful i don't really know how RO works but i treat it as having the same end results. It removes everything else from the water, thus making it pure.

RO water is made by pushing water through a special filter that allows water to pass through.  However the RO filter blocks the minerals.  RO water is the same as distilled but less energy is needed to make it (it takes a lot of energy to evaporate water and then cool it back into a liquid).  Rain falling through pollution free air is the same as RO and distilled water.
 


 
I'm never quite sure how to do the quote reply so forgive me for reposting too much information ...but I like to try and hit quote so the person knows I'm replying.  This site still baffles me a little (and WHY have they not made this mobile friendly yet?!)
 
Anyway...Steven, thank you very much for the shell explanation!  That helped a lot ...especially the amount that would be needed.  
 
I have my kitchen set up like a science lab today and my notebook is out...
 
I'm going to try my damndest to figure this out the best I can until the well water situation gets solved.
 
I'm going to do multiple testing on my tap water: plain, treated with prime and then with seashell.
 
I already tested my bottled water, Primo (which we and the dogs drink) with came up:
ph: 7.0
Ammonia: 0
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: 0
 
Just so I know I can use in a pinch if needed instead of RO or distilled.  
The guy at LFS said no to bottled because most times it's just bottled tap.  .....good to know mine isn't.
 
I will be back later after all of my testing!

 

[Mark Z.]

Hi,
 
Your aquarium is beautiful!
 
The photo with the bottles in front looks like an advertisement!
 
Really, really nice.
 
Mark

 

[thrujenseyes]

Ok...so...
Super Strange:
 
I did my tests today on my Tap Water that had been sitting out since yesterday:
 
My Ph (which was 6.4 when tested yesterday at home and at LFS) is now: 7.6 
Ammonia (which tested low on scale yesterday at LFS) is now: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 5.0
 
Treated Tap (1 Gallon pitcher with .1ml prime, .1ml flourish, .5ml gravel cleaner):
PH: 7.6
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 5.0
 
.....How in the heck has my PH changed from a 6.4 to a 7.6 w/out doing anything differently other than a different day?!?!?  
 
And is it normal to have Nitrates show up in tap...
and not go away after treated with Prime?
 
And one more ...should I save the gallon I just tested since the PH is good for my endlers?....or will the nitrates be an issue?
 
.....and no wonder my water changes have been so stressful to the fish....it seems my PH changes daily?!
I do know and am planning on having the water company come out soon.  I just wanted to see what I was (and have been) dealing with.
 
Oh and thank you Mark!!!
 
 
 

 

[Byron]

I did my tests today on my Tap Water that had been sitting out since yesterday:
 
My Ph (which was 6.4 when tested yesterday at home and at LFS) is now: 7.6 
Ammonia (which tested low on scale yesterday at LFS) is now: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 5.0
 
Treated Tap (1 Gallon pitcher with .1ml prime, .1ml flourish, .5ml gravel cleaner):
PH: 7.6
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 5.0
 
.....How in the heck has my PH changed from a 6.4 to a 7.6 w/out doing anything differently other than a different day?!?!?
 

 
This is (or should be) a more accurate pH for your tap water.  The lower reading yesterday was likely due to the CO2.  We still must know the GH and KH of the tap water to fully put this in perspective, as it is possible the municipal authority is adding someting to raise the pH.

And is it normal to have Nitrates show up in tap...
and not go away after treated with Prime?
 

 
Ammonia, nitrite and/or nitrate may occur in tap water, depending upon the source.  Here you seem to have nitrate.  Prime detoxifies nitrate, but it does this by somehow binding the nitrates (Seachem themselves were unable to explain to me how this occurs, they don't really know they said).  However, our aquarium test kits like the API will still show the "bound" nitrates.  Further, and more importantly, the binding of the nitrates is not permanent.  Seachem says it will reverse in 24-48 hours.  Prime's detoxification of nitrite is the same, temporary.
 

And one more ...should I save the gallon I just tested since the PH is good for my endlers?....or will the nitrates be an issue?
 

 
Nitrates are toxic to fish, but not as bad as ammonia or nitrite.  Nitrate at 5 ppm is low, so provided you are regular with substantial water changes to keep the nitrates that naturally occur in a fish tank low, you should not have a problem.  Nitrates in the aquarium should be kept as low as possible, and no higher than 20 ppm.  But as low as possible is the goal, whatever the fish.

.....and no wonder my water changes have been so stressful to the fish....it seems my PH changes daily?!
I do know and am planning on having the water company come out soon.  I just wanted to see what I was (and have been) dealing with.
 

 
The fluctuating pH is stressful on fish, plus we had ammonia mentioned (with no level) and this wouldn't help matters.  Something to keep in mind is that every negative (like ammonia, fluctuating pH, differing parameters, whatever) causes stress in fish, and the more stress the more it affects the fish's functioning.  So while a particular issue in itself may not be too problematical, when there are several they become more stressful and at some point the fish cannot cope.

 

[Mark Z.]

Your pictures are too perfect!
 
I wonder if it would be to your advantage, since you have such a small aquarium, to buy bottled water for water changes?
 
Or, would some kind of water filter (like Brita) work? I don't know much about this.

 

[thrujenseyes]

 

I did my tests today on my Tap Water that had been sitting out since yesterday:
 
My Ph (which was 6.4 when tested yesterday at home and at LFS) is now: 7.6 
Ammonia (which tested low on scale yesterday at LFS) is now: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 5.0
 
Treated Tap (1 Gallon pitcher with .1ml prime, .1ml flourish, .5ml gravel cleaner):
PH: 7.6
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 5.0
 
.....How in the heck has my PH changed from a 6.4 to a 7.6 w/out doing anything differently other than a different day?!?!?
 

 
This is (or should be) a more accurate pH for your tap water.  The lower reading yesterday was likely due to the CO2.  We still must know the GH and KH of the tap water to fully put this in perspective, as it is possible the municipal authority is adding someting to raise the pH.
 

But the tap that was tested yesterday both at home and at LFS that read 6.4 HAD been sitting out for 24 hours so CO2 should not have been the issue?!   And I don't think the municipal authority has anything to do with adding something since I'm a private well...?  Looking back in my fish journals the ph that I read today at 7.6 is right where I was after my tank had cycled.  So I'm baffled by this.
 
I will figure out the GH and KH when water company comes out to test the water ( I do not have these tests at home).

Your pictures are too perfect!
 
I wonder if it would be to your advantage, since you have such a small aquarium, to buy bottled water for water changes?
 
Or, would some kind of water filter (like Brita) work? I don't know much about this.

Thanks again Mark!
 
I thought the same thing but it turns out that the water would be lacking in minerals that my plants and crustaceans need.  
 
But this might be my answer for the meanwhile until I get the water company out and figure why my levels are fluctuating from my well...and I'll just have to add minerals back into the "clean water"