Goldfish with tail rot (or injury)

[Cichlid4life]

But goldfish don't have teeth to bite things! They have pharyngeal teeth back in their throats, but not teeth at the front of their mouths to take bites out of things. I still can't figure out how they're doing this.

The way that fin rot tears and rips a fish's fins apart even though it does not have teeth, and the way that a flake of flake food would break apart into many smaller pieces when a goldfish closes it's mouth on it because the muscles causes the flake food to break. Both are examples of thing tearing apart with out the use of teeth, it is just how things work in life.

 

[Jim Sinclair]

The fish was just lying on the floor of the hospital tank in the kitchen, trying to blend in and hide in the sand substrate, and ignoring food. Figuring that between being isolated (as a social fish accustomed to having lots of company ever since hatching) and being chilled (the kitchen is the coldest room in the house, even colder than the basement), the poor thing was scared and uncomfortable and generally miserable--not conditions conducive to healing. Since the consensus seems to be that this is an injury and not an infection or parasite, thus not something contagious to other fish, I moved it into the 20 long tank in the living room where it's much warmer and there are other baby fish for company (but no adult ones). I've added salt to that tank (4 tablespoons/20 gallons).

Then this evening I was doing another water change on the tanks in the basement, and I looked over the baby fish in the pond with the adults. Nobody was floating on top like the first tailless fish was when I found it, but I noticed another baby fish swimming with motions similar to how the tailless one swims (over-emphatic spine wiggling to compensate for not having a tail to flip). I netted it for a closer look, and sure enough, this one has a similarly truncated tail, with other fins intact and no spots or marks on the body. I moved it into one of the babies-only plastic tubs in the basement. Maybe I should bring it upstairs too, and put it in the warmer living room tank with the salt.

So now what? Catch all the baby fish in the big pond and check them for tail damage? Remove all the babies from the pond and put them back into tanks/tubs which will become overstocked again?

Okay, so I have just rounded up and inspected the tails of all 49 baby fish that were still in the pond.

41 have intact tails. Of those, I moved the 12 smallest ones back into the plastic tubs, figuring the smallest ones would be more vulnerable. 29 intact-tailed babies left in the pond.

7 have ragged tails but, like the two I already found, intact other fins. One of those also appears to have damage to an eye. I will try to get a good photo after I get them settled upstairs. Those seven, plus the one I moved to a plastic tub last night, are about to be moved upstairs where it's warmer and where I can keep a closer eye on them. I need to find a cat-proof place to set up my empty 15 gallon tank as a convalescent ward.

One baby was found dead, with a ragged tail and other fins intact. The body is in pretty bad condition with white around the face, but I don't know how long it's been dead and if that white stuff formed on it before or after death. Tomorrow I will ask the vet if anything useful can be determined from a body in this condition.

 

[Cichlid4life]

Okay, so I have just rounded up and inspected the tails of all 49 baby fish that were still in the pond.

41 have intact tails. Of those, I moved the 12 smallest ones back into the plastic tubs, figuring the smallest ones would be more vulnerable. 29 intact-tailed babies left in the pond.

7 have ragged tails but, like the two I already found, intact other fins. One of those also appears to have damage to an eye. I will try to get a good photo after I get them settled upstairs. Those seven, plus the one I moved to a plastic tub last night, are about to be moved upstairs where it's warmer and where I can keep a closer eye on them. I need to find a cat-proof place to set up my empty 15 gallon tank as a convalescent ward.

One baby was found dead, with a ragged tail and other fins intact. The body is in pretty bad condition with white around the face, but I don't know how long it's been dead and if that white stuff formed on it before or after death. Tomorrow I will ask the vet if anything useful can be determined from a body in this condition.

for the most part, things sound good, but for the rest, not so much...

 

[Jim Sinclair]

Horrors: One of the fish has lost both eyes. The other one I noticed before does have a damaged eye.

The remaining 29 babies in the pond are coming back upstairs *tonight*. They'll have to go back into the 75 gallon tank. I also have a 50 gallon one I loaned to someone who doesn't need it anymore, and if I can find a place to put it, I'll ask her to bring it back.

 

[Colin_T]

I would check the adults for any damaged tails or eyes and if the bigger fish are all fine, then it is most likely predation with the bigger fish eating the smaller ones.

A vet might be able to necropsy the dead fish but it is probably a waste of money.

The fish that has lost both eyes should be put down.

 

[Jim Sinclair]

The fish that has lost both eyes is swimming around better than some of the others (it has less extensive tail damage than most of them), was able to locate and eat food when I fed them just now, and like all the other injured fish in the convalescent tank, seems quite comfortable and peaceful. I think maybe they like the warmer temperature upstairs, the salt feels soothing to them, and they're relieved to be away from their predatory relatives.

While transferring the remaining 29 babies from the pond into the 75 gallon tank, I discovered another injured one that I hadn't noticed before. It must have been flipping its tail too fast for me to get a good look while I was trying to examine it earlier. So there is a total of 10 living injured fish (nine already in the convalescent tank and the other to be moved there tomorrow when the temperatures have equalized), one dead injured fish, and 40 back out of the pond in time to avoid injury.

I have made contact with the person who borrowed my 50 gallon tank. We're making plans to get it here by next Monday, December 10th, if not sooner. It might take me longer than that to figure out where on Earth I'm going to put it!

 

[Cichlid4life]

I would check the adults for any damaged tails or eyes and if the bigger fish are all fine, then it is most likely predation with the bigger fish eating the smaller ones.

A vet might be able to necropsy the dead fish but it is probably a waste of money.

The fish that has lost both eyes should be put down.

are you saying that the blind goldfish should be euthanized?

The missing eyes things is a bit strange for it to be a goldfish to be preying on the eyes of a younger goldfish, even most cichlids don't ever do that, even when they are attacking/fighting each other. I am seriously starting to think that there is a fish in the pond that either you don't know about and that you have never seen it in the pond, or that you completely forgot was in there. And i am starting to think that one of the following fish might be in the pond: a gar, a bass, a blue gill, a pacu, a cichlid, or something along those lines that could be doing this to the smaller fish.

 

[Jim Sinclair]

This is an indoor goldfish pond in my basement. It's an above-ground pool with a bare bottom and a few plastic decor items. There's no way any fish could get in there by itself, and nowhere one could hide if someone were to put it in there. The only fish there are goldfish.

I am a disabled person, a disability rights advocate, and a trained and certified (albeit not employed, but I maintain my certification out of sheer stubbornness) rehabilitation counselor. I am certainly not going to euthanize the blind fish. I've named it Adrien (chose that spelling because I don't know the sex of the fish) after bioethicist and disability rights scholar Adrienne Asch (http://www.voicesinbioethics.net/features/2014/03/12/adrienne-asch), whom I was fortunate enough to meet a few times.

are you saying that the blind goldfish should be euthanized?

The missing eyes things is a bit strange for it to be a goldfish to be preying on the eyes of a younger goldfish, even most cichlids don't ever do that, even when they are attacking/fighting each other. I am seriously starting to think that there is a fish in the pond that either you don't know about and that you have never seen it in the pond, or that you completely forgot was in there. And i am starting to think that one of the following fish might be in the pond: a gar, a bass, a blue gill, a pacu, a cichlid, or something along those lines that could be doing this to the smaller fish.

 

[Cichlid4life]

all you had to say was no and we would not bother to press the euthanizing matter any further.

 

[Jeremy180]

Removing the eyes and tail most definitely does not sound like goldfish behavior to me.
Is there another body of water within 100 yards of the pond? This is well within walking distance for a large crayfish.

As far as the missing eyes, it is not unheard of for herons to drop fish into a pond that they caught nearby.

I would definitely look into these possibilities if it were my pond.

 

[Jim Sinclair]

all you had to say was no and we would not bother to press the euthanizing matter any further.

But then I would have missed a "teachable moment": an opportunity to point out to people that having a disability does not make an individual or that individual's life any less worthwhile.

All 10 injured fish are now in the convalescent tank. They're all swimming around, appear calm and relaxed, and ate a good breakfast. Dinner will happen soon, after a water change with salt replenishment.

 

[Jim Sinclair]

Removing the eyes and tail most definitely does not sound like goldfish behavior to me.
Is there another body of water within 100 yards of the pond? This is well within walking distance for a large crayfish.

As far as the missing eyes, it is not unheard of for herons to drop fish into a pond that they caught nearby.

I would definitely look into these possibilities if it were my pond.

Again, this is an INDOOR pond. It's in my basement. I live in an urban neighborhood. There is a creek within walking distance for a human, and there might possibly be crayfish there, but it's way more than 100 yards away (I'd estimate 1/2 to 1 mile), and to get from there to my basement, any crayfish would have to cross several streets and then get through two sturdy doors and down a flight of stairs. As for herons, I'm pretty sure any intruder that large would be noticed noisily by my dogs.

But I am now wondering if the conflict between the adult and juvenile fish might have been more about territoriality than predation. When I introduced the babies into the pond, the adult fish all withdrew to one corner and stayed there for a long time before one of them ventured out to meet the newcomers. During the time the babies were in the pond with the adults, I never witnessed any chasing, nipping, or other aggression. The babies did not seem frightened of the adults, and freely swam near them. Figuring that even juvenile goldfish would have an instinct to recognize and avoid likely predators, I took that as a reassurance that the babies were indeed large enough to be safe from predation from the adults. The adult fish seemed less active, less interested in food, and more skittish than usual. They just kind of huddled together in their corner most of the time. I thought this could be simply wintertime lethargy because of the colder temperature. But this morning when I went to feed them, with the babies all gone and the adults having the pond all to themselves again, they were active and cheerful and perky, swimming around all over their pond, and much more interested in food. I wonder if, rather than seeing the smaller fish as prey, they may have seen them as invaders and felt compelled to defend their territory?

 

[Jeremy180]

Again, this is an INDOOR pond. It's in my basement. I live in an urban neighborhood. There is a creek within walking distance for a human, and there might possibly be crayfish there, but it's way more than 100 yards away (I'd estimate 1/2 to 1 mile), and to get from there to my basement, any crayfish would have to cross several streets and then get through two sturdy doors and down a flight of stairs. As for herons, I'm pretty sure any intruder that large would be noticed noisily by my dogs.

But I am now wondering if the conflict between the adult and juvenile fish might have been more about territoriality than predation. When I introduced the babies into the pond, the adult fish all withdrew to one corner and stayed there for a long time before one of them ventured out to meet the newcomers. During the time the babies were in the pond with the adults, I never witnessed any chasing, nipping, or other aggression. The babies did not seem frightened of the adults, and freely swam near them. Figuring that even juvenile goldfish would have an instinct to recognize and avoid likely predators, I took that as a reassurance that the babies were indeed large enough to be safe from predation from the adults. The adult fish seemed less active, less interested in food, and more skittish than usual. They just kind of huddled together in their corner most of the time. I thought this could be simply wintertime lethargy because of the colder temperature. But this morning when I went to feed them, with the babies all gone and the adults having the pond all to themselves again, they were active and cheerful and perky, swimming around all over their pond, and much more interested in food. I wonder if, rather than seeing the smaller fish as prey, they may have seen them as invaders and felt compelled to defend their territory?

Sorry, missed that.

As to the larger goldfish being territorial, it's a surprise to me, and Beyond my knowledge, I am afraid.

 

[Cichlid4life]

But then I would have missed a "teachable moment": an opportunity to point out to people that having a disability does not make an individual or that individual's life any less worthwhile.

All 10 injured fish are now in the convalescent tank. They're all swimming around, appear calm and relaxed, and ate a good breakfast. Dinner will happen soon, after a water change with salt replenishment.

i was not saying that you should euthanize the fish, i was asking if Colin T was suggesting that in one of his messages.

 

[Jim Sinclair]

i was not saying that you should euthanize the fish, i was asking if Colin T was suggesting that in one of his messages.

I know it was Colin_T who recommended the fish should be put down, and you who asked for clarification of what he meant. All this happening on a public forum, my response was meant for everyone reading it, not just for any one particular person.

From what I've seen of Adrien in the past day and what I've read online last night and today about fish who lose their eyes, it seems they adjust to blindness a lot more quickly and easily than humans do.