Fish Dying - High Ph?

[quarryman]

Hi all.

I recently bought a 70 litre tank and some fish:
6 neons
6 rummy noses
1 angel
2 mollys

I also bought some supplement that allowed me to fill the tank and add fish the same day without waiting for the filters to bed in.

All seemed well for a week or two and then I bought a few more:

4 neons
4 rummys
2 gouramis
1 molly

Then I found some of the neons had died. One of the mollys bullied all the other fish a lot a caused one of the other mollys to get stressed and her back twisted. The bully was female, the other 2 were a male and a female.

The one of the gouramis died. Then the neons started to drop like flies, 1 a week.

A few weekends ago I got the water tested and it was found to have a ph of 7.8. A bit high. I added to bog wood and another plant. Left it for another week and got it tested again. Still high, 7.8.

After this i done a 60% water change as opposed to the 40% I had been doing every 2-3 weeks up until then.

I added 2 more fish, a molly and a small catfish.

Nothing seems to improved and I'm losing 1 fish a week. Today i found 1 gourami, 1 neon and rummy nose had died.

What are the possibilities?

1. High ph. I tested the tap water we added and its a perfect 7.0 so something in the tank is causing it go high. I'm not sure what else it could be now, the gravel?

2. Underfed/overfed? I feed them twice a day, enough for them to consume in 30 - 40 seconds. The gourami was very slow to feed and lost out to most of the faster fish. Maybe he starved?

Any suggestions?

EDIT: I forgot to add, I've changed the filters when needed too. White (top) filter, once every 1-2 weeks. Green filter every 4-6 weeks. (I think it was the green, might have been the blues). Haven't changed the black (bottom) filter yet.

See pic of tank contents. There is 1 fake rock, 1 fake plant, 2 real plants, bog wood and gravel.

 

[Spishkey]

to me it sounds like the tank has never properely cycled. then with adding so many fish in such a short time, the ammonia has built up and poisoned them. how long have you had it up and running?
what are your water stats in ammonia, nitrites and nitrates please? also is the ph the same level as it comes out of your tap?

did you buy the fish locally? as your lfs probably has the same ph as you. chances are they have been kept in the same ph at the lfs so cant see that being the problem really.

 

[rabbut]

to TFF,

Some more information is needed realy...

Before jumping to conclusions, what addative have you used to instantly cycle the filter? Some work, most don't...

Also, please can you give waterstats for Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate? What test kit do you use?

The pH is fine for all the fish you have listed, assuming they aren't wild caught stocks...

Please can you also list the fish in there currently and the fish you have lost. Species and number in there for both please.

All the best
Rabbut

 

[Miss Wiggle]

yes i agree with the above, we need answers to those questions before we can make a firm diagnosis of the problem, however I strongly suspect that the tank is not cycled which is why the fish are dying.

have a read of the link in my sig 'whats cycling' which explains the whole process to you then give us a shout witht he answers to the questions above and any questions you have from reading that topic.

 

[quarryman]

Hi,

thanks for the welcome

To me it sounds like the tank has never properely cycled. then with adding so many fish in such a short time, the ammonia has built up and poisoned them. how long have you had it up and running?

Before jumping to conclusions, what addative have you used to instantly cycle the filter? Some work, most don't...

Only had it up and running for a half a day. I was given an additive to allow us to add the fish without waiting for the tank to cycle. I can't remember the name of it, I'll check when i get home.

water stats in ammonia, nitrites and nitrates

I know nothing about these. Will my LFS test them? So far they have just been checking the ph for me. Can i buy a kit to test them myself?

also is the ph the same level as it comes out of your tap?

No, as mentioned above it is 7.0 from the tap and then 7.8 when tested in the tank. I've read that letting the tap water settle for a few hours can give a different reading so I'll try that next.

did you buy the fish locally? as your lfs probably has the same ph as you. chances are they have been kept in the same ph at the lfs so cant see that being the problem really.

yep, bought locally. However his tank water is not as high as mine so something in my tank is driving it up.

Also, please can you give waterstats for Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate? What test kit do you use?

as above. I don't know these. I will look into buying a kit.

Please can you also list the fish in there currently and the fish you have lost. Species and number in there for both please.

Currently (in order of first addition)
3 neons
9 rummy noses
4 mollys
1 angel
1 catfish

The following have died
7 neons
2 gourami
1 rummy nose (though up to now these guys have seemed the hardiest)

I've read that rummy noses can be suited to lower ph and they have seemed fine since i bought them, they were the first fish i added to the tank. Are they particularly hardy against ammonia/nitrates that the others might not be?

Is my ph really the problem?

I'd really like to solve the problem as it seems like every time i visit the tank i'm doing a count to see if any have died.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

no the pH is highly unlikely to have been a problem, it will be the ammonia and nitrite. if you have a read of the link in my sig 'whats cycling' it will explain what all these levels mean, why they are likely to be killing your fish, what test kit to get and what else to do about it.

you also have too many fish for the tank at this stage in time, long term the angel will outgrow the tank and as such will need to be re-homed. Depending on species the catfish may also grow too large.

I would strongly suggest you return all the fish to the shop, do a fishless cycle (again link in my sig) this takes around 4-6 weeks but it means when you are done you can safely add a reasonable amount of fish and should have no death/disease problems.

If you leave things as they are you will most likely loose some if not all of your remaining fish.

 

[Spishkey]

no i dont think the ph is the problem. you tank is possibly still cycling (see the link in ms wiggles signature for info on cycling) and could have high ammonia/nitrite levels which will kill fish.
yes you can buy water test kits yourself. these test the ammonia, ph, nitrite and nitrates in your water (as well some test hardness too)

the liquid kits are best, the paper strip test kits are not so good.

i do believe api do a master liquid test kit which covers all the test you'll need, roughly about £30 i think in the uk but last a long time

another possibility is that you have a disease/infection running amok in your tank. did any of the dead fish have any visible symptoms before they died (or even after!) redness/faded colour/sticking out scales/ worms/swollen bellies/cuts/grazes etc

but i still go with my gut instinct that you are going through a fish in cycle

 

[waterdrop]

Agree with MW.

quarryman, this is a classic case where you have come into the hobby with all good intentions but not had access to the core information needed before starting.. that of what cycling is really all about and of ammonia and nitrites.

Start with the links in MW's post. Read & re-read.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[quarryman]

Ok thanks for all the replies guys. It seems tank cycling is what's needed here.

One thing I'm confused on is has my tank not cycled by now? Would enough bacteria have not grown to deal with what is in the tank? I can understand fish would die when the ammount of ammonia exceeds what the bacteria can handle but surely that should level off and the fish should stop dying right?

Also, if i perform water change am i not undoing a lot of that work? Or do the bacteria purely live in the filter and the ammonia is in the water itself?

Sorry if these are obvious questions. I'm still reading through those links.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

the process of cycling can take several months, it's important to remeber that it's a supply and demand thing.

so to take an example if you had fish producing 2ppm of ammonia a day then the tank would be classed as cycled when you had enough bacteria to consume 2ppm of ammonia each day. No extra bacteria would grow, they just grow to the point where they can handle the food there, when the food runs out the stop growing.

so if you were to then add another load of fish to the tank meaning that you are then producing 4ppm of ammonia you'd still only have enough bacteria to consume half of that and then the tank would not be cycled anymore so you'd go through the process of cycling again. In a nice mature tank the bacteria colony is able to grow at a much faster rate and (providing you don't add loads of fish at any one time) this process will be done in 24 hrs or so, this is called a mini-cycle and half the time it's so quick that you haven't even got time to measure it let alone do anything about it.

Unfortunately with a brand new bacteria colony this is not the case, it can take several weeks to catch up with each new load of fish.

It's also important to remember that the cycling process is pretty grim for the poor fish, they can suffer ammonia burns to their gills as a result of it which causes permanent respiratory damage, you will sometimes get a fish which makes it through the cycle then croaks a few weeks later when the levels are seemingly perfect, it's just from the damage that was done during the cycle.

So it is possible that your tank has cycled now and this is the after effects, it's more likely though that it's not yet finished cycling. when you get your test kit to test ammonia and nitrite we can make a proper diagnosis, at the moment it's speculation around the most likely situation.

as you quite rightly guessed the bacteria do not live free swimming, they cling onto surfaces so changing the water doesn't remove the bacteria, it just dilutes the ammonia.

just to pre-empt what may be your next questions, if you remove all the ammonia how will the bacteria grow?! Well it doesn't really work like that, the ammonia that's being measured by your test kit and floating around in the water is the excess ammonia that the bacteria can't yet use up. So basically you just worry about keeping things as good as possible for the fish, and the bacteria will get plenty to eat in the periods between your water changes when the fish are pumping it out.

the only silly question is a question not asked, keep reading and just fire away with your q's!

 

[quarryman]

the process of cycling can take several months, it's important to remeber that it's a supply and demand thing.

so to take an example if you had fish producing 2ppm of ammonia a day then the tank would be classed as cycled when you had enough bacteria to consume 2ppm of ammonia each day. No extra bacteria would grow, they just grow to the point where they can handle the food there, when the food runs out the stop growing.

so if you were to then add another load of fish to the tank meaning that you are then producing 4ppm of ammonia you'd still only have enough bacteria to consume half of that and then the tank would not be cycled anymore so you'd go through the process of cycling again. In a nice mature tank the bacteria colony is able to grow at a much faster rate and (providing you don't add loads of fish at any one time) this process will be done in 24 hrs or so, this is called a mini-cycle and half the time it's so quick that you haven't even got time to measure it let alone do anything about it.

Unfortunately with a brand new bacteria colony this is not the case, it can take several weeks to catch up with each new load of fish.

It's also important to remember that the cycling process is pretty grim for the poor fish, they can suffer ammonia burns to their gills as a result of it which causes permanent respiratory damage, you will sometimes get a fish which makes it through the cycle then croaks a few weeks later when the levels are seemingly perfect, it's just from the damage that was done during the cycle.

So it is possible that your tank has cycled now and this is the after effects, it's more likely though that it's not yet finished cycling. when you get your test kit to test ammonia and nitrite we can make a proper diagnosis, at the moment it's speculation around the most likely situation.

as you quite rightly guessed the bacteria do not live free swimming, they cling onto surfaces so changing the water doesn't remove the bacteria, it just dilutes the ammonia.

just to pre-empt what may be your next questions, if you remove all the ammonia how will the bacteria grow?! Well it doesn't really work like that, the ammonia that's being measured by your test kit and floating around in the water is the excess ammonia that the bacteria can't yet use up. So basically you just worry about keeping things as good as possible for the fish, and the bacteria will get plenty to eat in the periods between your water changes when the fish are pumping it out.

the only silly question is a question not asked, keep reading and just fire away with your q's!

great reply, thanks Miss Wiggle.

I'm going to pick up a water testing kit tomorrow and update soon!

 

[vinylman]

I wouldn't keep Angels in a tank less than 16'' high, they grow very quickly; try to find out if the shop will take it back and get a credit note or a few more plants. The Angel will probably make a meal of the Neons. I'd take the plants out of the pots, too - there's nothing in there that will uproot them.

 

[quarryman]

I wouldn't keep Angels in a tank less than 16'' high, they grow very quickly; try to find out if the shop will take it back and get a credit note or a few more plants. The Angel will probably make a meal of the Neons. I'd take the plants out of the pots, too - there's nothing in there that will uproot them.

A lot of fish keepers in Leeds aren't there? I'm Irish and support Leeds united, we gotta get promoted this year!

Yeah, we were told about the Angel being territorial but so far we've only seen agressiveness from the mollys but we're keeping an eye out.

Good suggestion on the plants.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

very few fish are agressive/territorial as juvi's, it's once they hit sexual maturity that it starts, so the fact that it's fine no is no indication that it always will be i'm afraid.

 

[jonnyf84]

hi, in a nut shell: Too many fish way way too soon

No matter what you add to your tank its a impossibility it will be cycled in half a day, if i were you i would have a go at the irresponsible muppet that sold you this magic liquid, i once fully cycled a tank from scratch in 11 days and i thought that was a miracle. PH is naturally unstable during cycling so don't worry too much about that, it will level out in time unless you have a super low KH in which case it will drop not rise.. Just be patient and don't overstock your tank. Take out the neons and don't get any new ones for a couple of months, they are notoriously sensitive and need well established aquariums. Best of luck.

Jonny