Farming, The Environment, Morality And Vegetarians

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Damn Tokis, those pictures got me craving a Burger!!

Are you trying to troll/flame or something ? "Sigh"....

 

[nmonks]

Whoa! This thread has become heated!

fishkiller_nomore -- I wasn't saying anything about your weight or health. As a simple matter of science, there is plenty of obesity among low-income social groups. Quoting from a 2004 paper by the director of Centre of Public Health Nutrition Adam Drewnowski, The rates of obesity and type 2 diabetes in the US follow a socioeconomic gradient, with the highest rates observed among racial/ethnic minorities and the poor.

The argument you are making is that the ends justifies the means. Producing inexpensive food is the important thing, and that animal suffering, though sad, is secondary to that. That would be a valid argument if people in the US and UK were starving to death. But they're not. Certainly, there is malnutrition, but supplying McDonalds and KFC with cheap chicken and beef isn't going to fix that. The major problems with obesity and malnutrition in the US and UK come from people (rich or poor) eating too much of the wrong stuff. They don't eat enough fruit, vegetables, oily fish, or complex carbohydrates, and they eat too much fat, salt, simple sugars, and red meat. They take in more calories than they need, but don't take in enough fibre, minerals, and vitamins. I simplify a little, but that's basically the problem in a nutshell.

bullhead -- Your point about farmers is very important. Reducing the cost of food production via factory farming and genetically modifying crops has done nothing to raise family farm incomes. I've lived in Nebraska where farmers are literally working the ground for less income than someone working in a grocery store or restuarant. No surprise that the young people are leaving farming communities in their droves and never coming back, while big agribusinesses buy up the land and stick a manager in charge who then hires labour gangs working at minimum wage. Cheap, cheap food hasn't done the family farmers any good, it hasn't done the environment any good, it hasn't done animal welfare any good, and it certainly hasn't done the consumer any good.

The question of how much money you spend on groceries isn't something I can comment on. My income is small (I'm a freelance writer -- the definition of poor!) and I have to watch every penny I spend. Some days, my fish eat better than I do. But seriously, how much food do we buy that we actually need? Do we need soda? Chip and dip? Candy bars? Chocolate biscuits? Frozen pizza? Pop-tarts? Should our kids be eating ice cream or fresh fruit after dinner? Milk or Sunny-D? Should they be having muesli for breakfast or Cheerios? I enjoy junk food as much as anyone, but I wouldn't use the argument that production of cheap junk food justifies factory farming. Junk food is a luxury, but it's priced so cheap because of the way it is produced. Nebraskan farmers are going bust producing the corn that is bought up by Con Agra and the rest to produce sugary cereals and cheese-puffs. Candy and chocolate are cheap because people in Africa and South America are producing the sugar and cocoa for tiny amounts of money that keep those people living in grinding poverty. OK, so a poor family here in England gets to buy a bar of Cadbury's for £1, but does that justify a poor family in Kenya not having enough money to buy basic healthcare or education? Everything is connected.

Cheers, Neale

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Nmonks i totally agree with what you are saying, very well put .

 

[Danno]

Damn Tokis, those pictures got me craving a Burger!!

Are you trying to troll/flame or something ? "Sigh"....

No actually I wasn't flamming at all. I grew up around farming all my life. The way I was broght up if you want a hamburger you go to the butcher shop and at the butcher shop you see ... cow!

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Damn Tokis, those pictures got me craving a Burger!!

Are you trying to troll/flame or something ? "Sigh"....

No actually I wasn't flamming at all. I grew up around farming all my life. The way I was broght up if you want a hamburger you go to the butcher shop and at the butcher shop you see ... cow!

Fair enough- but do you agree with farming like battery farming? Do you care at all for the welfare of the animals you consume before they are slaughtered? Do you mind if your meat is produced out of the poorest quality animals and is on the same level as dog food meat, or the if your meat is of the best quality?
Then again, burgers are full of animals sphincters, ears and snouts...

 

[Danno]

Humans are born with canine teeth seeing that they are ment for flesh. I love a good steak, a good chicken barbeque and so does the majority of the population around the world. The only way that factories can produce such a large amount of food is to farm in boilers or in a farm-factor.

To say that there is "shincters ears and snouts" in hamburger meat is not true at all. Maybe in third world countrys yes. But not in the USA, UK, or Canada. Hamburgers are made out of Ground Round, not entrails.

 

[steelhealr]

Just stepping in here...and ...observing.........keep things level headed and to the topic. Thanks. SH

 

[nmonks]

Humans are born with canine teeth seeing that they are ment for flesh. I love a good steak, a good chicken barbeque and so does the majority of the population around the world.

Oh boy, please forgive me -- I couldn't let this pass. The reason humans -- and indeed primates generally -- have canines is an accident of evolution. Our distance ancestors (shrew-like animals) had them. We have teeny-tiny canines compared with true carnivores. Moreover, what people often forget is that carnivores like cats and dogs don't use their canines to eat meat. The canine are used to grab the prey, nothing more. Once the prey is dead, the carnassial teeth are used to shear the meat away from the bone. The carnassials are the equivalent teeth to our premolars and molars, but where ours are flat for grinding nuts and seeds (like a pestle and mortar) a cat or dog has very sharp, blade-like carnassials that work a bit like scissors. In some species they are exceptionally robust and can crack bones as well, for extracting the marrow. Very, very different to our molars.

Humans actually have very small canine teeth, of a type known as incisiform canine teeth, that is, canine teeth that are shaped more like incisors. This is actually typical of fossil hominids as well. Basically the trend in hominids has been for the canines to become smaller and less pointy. Incisors are for biting fruit and the like, shearing away food. Herbivores (like horses) have bigger incisors, whereas carnivores have very small, basically rudimentary, incisors (look at a cat or dog for example). A few primates have large canines, e.g., baboons, but these are used exclusively for display (snarling!). Anyway, as a simple point of scientific fact, humans have completely non-carnivorous teeth.

The only way that factories can produce such a large amount of food is to farm in boilers or in a farm-factor.

There is an element of truth to this, but its also what the agri business would like people to believe. The bigger question is do we really need to produce so much cheap, poor-quality meat when we could make half that amount of more expensive but better tasting (and ethically better) quality meat?

To say that there is "shincters ears and snouts" in hamburger meat is not true at all. Maybe in third world countrys yes. But not in the USA, UK, or Canada. Hamburgers are made out of Ground Round, not entrails.

In America and everywhere else. Sure, the prime fillet on sale is exactly that, but most of the meat consumed by Americans, Britons, and everyone else in the West is processed. If you think pepperoni on a pizza or the white meat in McNuggets is prime meat, you're out of your mind. The pressure on food retailers is intense, and meat is expensive, so they go with what's cheap. Try picking up a copy of "Meat" by Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall. A must-read for any meat-lover. His mantra is basically this: good meat is wonderful, but you have know what to look for when shopping. The list of tricks the retailers pull -- from faking the redness to pumping up with water -- is amazing. Practically every mainstream retailer does this, even the good ones. Anyway, it's a superb book, both in terms of excellent recipes but also in laying out the good and bad in farming, slaughtering, and butchering.

Cheers, Neale

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Humans are born with canine teeth seeing that they are ment for flesh. I love a good steak, a good chicken barbeque and so does the majority of the population around the world. The only way that factories can produce such a large amount of food is to farm in boilers or in a farm-factor.

To say that there is "shincters ears and snouts" in hamburger meat is not true at all. Maybe in third world countrys yes. But not in the USA, UK, or Canada. Hamburgers are made out of Ground Round, not entrails.

Hmm well i was watching a program on tv the other day about farming and they said that every 7 out of 10 brands of burgers sold in england contain snouts and ears.
And to be honest i am not really surprised at such a statistic- i worked at a scotch egg factory once when i was a teenager and i saw a lot of that kind of stuff going into the scotch eggs...

I don't doubt that people are evolved to have some meat in their diet, but we are over-farming animals in many parts of the world, producing more than enough animal products to more than satisfy the general publics demand.
We don't need ways of farming like battery farming to have animal products to eat- the environmental impact of battery farming is also bad, the food produced is of very low quality, and many people are increasingly fearing the long term consequences on the health of people who regularly consume battery farmed animal products due to all the hormones and chemicals the animals are fed which are then passed down to us in the food chain (a bit like how mercury is passed from fish to fish and then to us- and we all know how bad mercury is).
I don't know how you can look at the picture of some sick calves like the one i posted just before you commented on it and think "yummy, i want to eat those animals". Personally, if i saw a sick animal i would not want to eat it, and it certainly wouldn't make me feel hungry.

Battery farmed animals have no quality of life whatsoever- there's is one of constant distress and suffering. 21% of all 0 grazing cows are already lame by the time they reach the slaughterhouse from standing in their own excrement all day long in humid barns.
In fact, many battery farmed animals are already very sick by the time they go to the slaughterhouse because as far as the owners of such farms are concerned, it is not worth the money to go treating the animals when few people can tell the difference between a chicken which had a 2inch puss filled absess on its eyeball and a healthy chicken when they are killed and prepared into a neatly packaged carcass on the supermarket shelf.
Deseases and parasites outbreaks are very common on battery farmed animals due to the animals crampt quarters, poor diet and stressful living conditions.
When it comes down to it, most of this suffering is unesarsary, which is what makes it so bad IMHO.

 

[Danno]

Its what I believe and know.

\Have you two ever been on a farm, had experiance working with them, trying to make a living on a farm? (I mean this with no flame in it)

You two are getting very heated. Chill guys, its a forum for fun

 

[bullhead]

bullhead -- Your point about farmers is very important. Reducing the cost of food production via factory farming and genetically modifying crops has done nothing to raise family farm incomes. I've lived in Nebraska where farmers are literally working the ground for less income than someone working in a grocery store or restuarant. No surprise that the young people are leaving farming communities in their droves and never coming back, while big agribusinesses buy up the land and stick a manager in charge who then hires labour gangs working at minimum wage. Cheap, cheap food hasn't done the family farmers any good, it hasn't done the environment any good, it hasn't done animal welfare any good, and it certainly hasn't done the consumer any good.

The question of how much money you spend on groceries isn't something I can comment on. My income is small (I'm a freelance writer -- the definition of poor!) and I have to watch every penny I spend. Some days, my fish eat better than I do. But seriously, how much food do we buy that we actually need? Do we need soda? Chip and dip? Candy bars? Chocolate biscuits? Frozen pizza? Pop-tarts? Should our kids be eating ice cream or fresh fruit after dinner? Milk or Sunny-D? Should they be having muesli for breakfast or Cheerios? I enjoy junk food as much as anyone, but I wouldn't use the argument that production of cheap junk food justifies factory farming. Junk food is a luxury, but it's priced so cheap because of the way it is produced. Nebraskan farmers are going bust producing the corn that is bought up by Con Agra and the rest to produce sugary cereals and cheese-puffs. Candy and chocolate are cheap because people in Africa and South America are producing the sugar and cocoa for tiny amounts of money that keep those people living in grinding poverty. OK, so a poor family here in England gets to buy a bar of Cadbury's for £1, but does that justify a poor family in Kenya not having enough money to buy basic healthcare or education? Everything is connected.

Cheers, Neale
[/quote]

Only a small portion of our diet consists of meat (beef,pork or poultry).A majority is vegtables and fruit and some is on conveinonce food(frozen pizza,burritos and such).Now days there are healhy alternatives in evry food group,but like I stated they do cost more.For example,new york strip-battery raised-4 steaks around $12.00 compaired to free range,upwards of $30.00,so feeding a family of 4 twice a week on any kind of free range meat is quit expensive.As far as junk food,it has its place,its a treat that is not consumed everyday.I think we have many more choices now only because the corp. America has found that they can make alot of money off of it.Mcdonalds has even changed thier menu for christ sakes.I also found that pretty much ever community has some kind of food co-op or farm co-op wher you can invest a small amount of time and money and get good free range and organic food.I think this idea should go far as it take the profit power away from the corp. bastards and puts it in the hands of local people who care about one another and it impacts the local community in a positive way,economically and enviormentally.I agree that there are injustice's all down the food chain and all over the world and I cant stand that the nation I live in and pay taxes too is one of the main contributers to these injustices.I would like to stop paying taxes so I know that I didnt contribute to the #### "my goverment and corp. america" does.I try like hell to do what I know is right but like I said before I have a responsability to my family and kids dont really like to eat spinach salads for dinner or muesli for breakfast,hell I dont even like that stuff all the time.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Its what I believe and know.

\Have you two ever been on a farm, had experiance working with them, trying to make a living on a farm? (I mean this with no flame in it)

You two are getting very heated. Chill guys, its a forum for fun

I was brought up on a farm- my mum owns one. We primarily farmed sheep, pigs and cows as far as animals went (all of which were for intended for human consumption, although the sheep were also used for wool), and i know how difficult it is to make a living on farms now days. And you know why? Apart from too much competicion from cheap food products from abroad and issues like mad cow desease and foot and mouth (which hit every farmer hard), battery farms are contributing to the death of all the farmers who actually try to farm animals in a more morally correct manner. My mother actually had to give up the owning of animals on the farm due to this, and stick to agriculture and renting out the land to other farmers instead only.
So yes, i know about farming.
By the way, this subject is one that is bound to be serious, since it has a lot of controversy and strong emotions attached to it- i appologise if i appear a bit too blunt at times though its just hard for me not to feel passionate/strongly about this subject .

 

[nmonks]

Danno -

Yes, I spent a lot of time on farms as a kid. My dad grew up on a farm, and one of my cousins is a farmer. My dad went on to be a chef, and delighted in telling me stories about what went into the food we ate.

As for making a living on a farm... spend some with family farmers anywhere and talk about their income. Few of them are making money. In terms of mass produced food, the shift is away from family farms and has been for decades. Free-range, organic farms can be profitable at a smaller size and when run by families, but the agri business lobby in the US and the European Union is so strong that government does little to help them, but provides massive subsidies for factory farmers.

Ironically, though the French often get a lot of stick from the Brits and the Americans for their protectionism, to their credit they're actually doing something (perhaps misguidedly) to preserve rural economies. Not seen much evidence of that in either the UK or US.

Cheers, NEale

Its what I believe and know.

\Have you two ever been on a farm, had experiance working with them, trying to make a living on a farm? (I mean this with no flame in it)

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Oh boy, please forgive me -- I couldn't let this pass. The reason humans -- and indeed primates generally -- have canines is an accident of evolution. Our distance ancestors (shrew-like animals) had them. We have teeny-tiny canines compared with true carnivores. Moreover, what people often forget is that carnivores like cats and dogs don't use their canines to eat meat. The canine are used to grab the prey, nothing more. Once the prey is dead, the carnassial teeth are used to shear the meat away from the bone. The carnassials are the equivalent teeth to our premolars and molars, but where ours are flat for grinding nuts and seeds (like a pestle and mortar) a cat or dog has very sharp, blade-like carnassials that work a bit like scissors. In some species they are exceptionally robust and can crack bones as well, for extracting the marrow. Very, very different to our molars.

Humans actually have very small canine teeth, of a type known as incisiform canine teeth, that is, canine teeth that are shaped more like incisors. This is actually typical of fossil hominids as well. Basically the trend in hominids has been for the canines to become smaller and less pointy. Incisors are for biting fruit and the like, shearing away food. Herbivores (like horses) have bigger incisors, whereas carnivores have very small, basically rudimentary, incisors (look at a cat or dog for example). A few primates have large canines, e.g., baboons, but these are used exclusively for display (snarling!). Anyway, as a simple point of scientific fact, humans have completely non-carnivorous teeth.

Hmm...I'm undecided on this. We definately evolved to eat meat at least through a large part of our evolution, but whether our canine teeth are a left over product from our evolution not really important in our modern lives (kinda like the appendix), or whether they still serve an important and valid purpose in obtaining the right foods in our diet in an efficient manner, is another question.
I think that a bit of meat in the diet is good but not vital. I think that meat can easily be substituted by other things in out diet, but i don't think eating meat is unesarsary either just as much as eating oranges is not unesarsary. Hm.
But i think overal, one only has to eat very little meat to reap many benefets from it. Throughout a lot of history, meat was never eaten on a very regular basis except by the very wealthy in society (and even then, this was not always so). I remember reading a news article recently where they discovered a sacred site (a massive wood henge) connected to stone henge inhabited by prehistoric people who probably also worshipped at stone henge. The archaeologists were digging through digging through one these ancient peoples garbage heaps, sifting through all the ancient food waste to see what sort of diet they had- they discovered that although the people ate meat (primarily lots of pigs), they only ate it very occasionally, mostly on religious festivals like the time of the solstices where there was a lot of feasting. Animals like pigs were too valueable to eat every month, so people only ate them occasionally- and they seemed to thrive off such a diet, which concentrated on lots of veg, cereals, fruit and a little meat.

Overal, although i think meat is good for you, i'd only personally advise people eating it if it was farmed in a morally correct manner which attended to the animals basic needs and gave them a reasonably good quality of life (unlike battery farming). There doesn't seem to be many guidelines though on how much, and what types of meat, and how often you should eat it though.

 

[nmonks]

Tokis-Phoenix --

There's two things going on here. First, did human bodies evolved to eat meat. Short answer, no. We have no phsyical adaptations for a meat-based diet. Our canines would be useless for catching prey or biting off gobbets of raw meat because they're far too small and blunt. But did human social behaviour evolve to eat meat. Apparently yes, we did develop things like co-operative hunting and tool use to catch and eat meat. Early humans probably caught prey in much the same way chimps still do, and probably with about the same frequency. It's hard to say exactly what the "natural" human diet would be, but it would probably be very similar to than of a chimp.

Cheers, Neale

Hmm...I'm undecided on this. We definately evolved to eat meat at least through a large part of our evolution, but whether our canine teeth are a left over product from our evolution not really important in our modern lives (kinda like the appendix), or whether they still serve an important and valid purpose in obtaining the right foods in our diet in an efficient manner, is another question.