Europe

[Far_King]

In the 90's inflation was crazy there, for sure.  In the run up to joining the single currency inflation definitely increased.  My ex-wife was Polish and was looking at buying property out there.  In the time she was looking prices had doubled.
 
I believe the joining country has to achieve exchange rate stability for two years and the nominal long-term interest rates of applicant nations must not have exceeded by more than 2% the average of the interest rates of the three member states with the best records on price stability.
 
What this neglects to cover is the years prior to that.  A country can enforce very strict criteria in order to get itself into this position in the first place and this frequently happens.  As long as they can then prove they have a stable economy as defined above (and in many other rules, this isn't a straightforward process), then they meet the acceptance criteria for the single currency.
 
I feel we may have digressed slightly from the original topic, as the UK was not in any danger of joining the Euro - I'd have certainly voted no to that.
 
Currently I see no reason to stay, any articles I see on the subject seem to be scare mongering and are debunked in short order.

 

[ShinySideUp]

Just posted an 'enthusiastic' comment on Europe and the Middle East migrants but the forum software edited so many words that I've deleted it -- so much for free speech.
 
Anyway, months of soul-searching has been going on and I have to say, given the option, I shall vote -- OUT.

 

[Akasha72]

yep, me too Mr Shiny, all that balony yesterday about how he's negotiated a better deal ... When will he stop trying to brain wash us in to believing his lies. He's just an over inflated windbag who wouldn't know how to tell us the truth if his life depended on it. He's just the tory version of Tony Blair and look where he got us ... into an illegal war of which we're still paying the price for. This so called 'better deal' hasn't even been voted on yet. All it takes is for one E.U state to vote no and we're back where we started.
 
The truth is that we've lost control of our country and we'll never get it back whilst we are part of the E.U. The European parliament make the rules and we're too stupid to tell em where to go. 
If they decided next week that we had to give up the pounds and pence and take up the Euro we'd have to do it because they've got us that tied up in that we'd have no other choice.
 
As for the millions we pay them just to be part of it ... that money would be put to better use re-building our country. Plough a million or two into the health service and start charging non-brits to use it instead of feeling sorry for them and giving them free care - they wouldn't give a Brit free care in their country. 
Plough another million or two on re-building the broken down transport system, lets face it Britain roads are worse than a third world country.
And the rest - plough that into looking after our old people and disabled instead of using them as a whipping boy for a broken welfare state, Nobody asks to become disabled and growing old is a fact of life none of us can avoid - unless the countries biggest killer gets you first .... and while we're on that subject pile a few more million into cancer research and stop this nonscense of drugs being 'too expensive'.
 
I think the money we pay to be part of the E.U would be much better spent on all of those things and more. 

 

[Far_King]

^ totally agree.

 

[iliveinazoo]

I doubt that we would save a lot of money because the US of E will charge us a fortune to be part of the 'free trade' market and the lunatics that run the asylum will pay it regardless.  I think that we would save some money but the savings will be squandered, expect MP's salaries, and other public service officials including doctors salaries to rise substantially in the few years after the OUT vote!
 
What also frustrates me about the UK generally is that many of our issues could actually be sorted out internally, I've put a couple of the issues below:
 
1.  Benefits:  If we introduced a rule that EVERYONE has to contribute towards the tax system for four years before being able to claim benefits (unless proven to be unable to work) then the 4 year rule that Cameron wants to bring in can be achieved.  It would hit some but I would guess that the majority of UK citizens live at home for the first few years of their working lives.  The new rule would have to be worded to state that you have contributed even if your salary is lower than the lowest tax band and therefore have not actually paid into the system.
2.  Housing:  Not allowing people to buy their own council and social housing would mean that houses stay within the system therefore there would be more homes available for UK residents that need them.
 
Saying all of this the 'deal' that Cameron has managed to 'negotiate' appears to amount to nothing except, possibly, the re-wording of current US of E clauses.  There is no re-distribution of powers back to European states as the powers that we have tentatively demanded have to be requested from the US of E in the future and will only be considered under exceptional circumstances and 55% of the other states will have to agree!!
 
The one that holds my anger the worst at the moment is child benefit.  How can the US of E think that it is reasonable for the UK tax payer to pay child benefit to a foreign national's children when the child does not even live in the UK!!  Absolutely ridiculous.
 
I'm definitely still on the undecided fence but there will need to be major changes to Cameron's 'deal' before my mind is now swayed the other way, at the moment I'm OUT...

 

[Akasha72]

I agree totally with both your points iliveinazoo.
 
Especially on housing. We should NOT be selling off the social housing. New affordable homes should be built and those wishing to buy their home should be given first refusal to buy them at a reduced rate. That way the social rented housing is retained for those who need them.
 
I live in a social housing flat. I wouldn't dream of trying to buy it because firstly it's a run down mess. It needs a lot of work to bring it into the 21st century but mostly, I wouldn't buy it because it needs to stay in the system for the next person who really needs it once I find my way out of here!

 

[iliveinazoo]

I read your earlier post Akasha72 and I hope that you get your ground floor home soon

 

[Akasha72]

so do I. I'm having a poorly day today. All my joints are painful, got a thumping headache and dizziness too. I'm avoiding the stairs as much as I can today. 

 

[Baccus]

For Englands sake I hope you do manage to get out of the EU, looking as I do from the outside of England I can see nothing but problems and ones that are only ever going to worsen for the Country.
 
As for social housing and free benefits, I have never understood why a country (and this includes all developed countries, looking at you Australia) will give its citizens both natrually born there and ones that have migrated and swarn alligenence to their chosen homeland next to nothing while bending over backwards to give others that have never contributed directly or indirectly to the Countries economical well being everything on a silver platter. It disgusts me no end that pensioners that worked their lives away through depressions etc and paid their TAXes throughout now have to struggle to even buy some decent groceries just to eat for another week. And because wages where never great and they had always been promised that the Government would provide a suitable pension in their retirement, never managed to buy a home let alone make any savings for the future they now find themselves in. My Government treats the honestly needy as criminals while true criminals and rauters of the system are given EVERYTHING from cheap housing, free (or near free) education, medical assistance at a greatly reduced amount and every allowance under the sun to flaunt our Laws, claiming that they didn't realise it was wrong to ....... Where as if an Australian tried to do the same thing they would be hounded by the media and locked up.
And the people who say "well stop being lazy and get a job". My answer is not everyone lives in the cities or even larger towns, and moving vast (I could travel for 24hrs straight and still not leave one State) distances at great expense for a possible job just is not viable. So the most vulnerable people are stuck in a town/ community with little or no job prospects, and they didn't even have an option on being in that community its just where they happened to be born and grew up. With current droughts and no money coming into the smaller communities because the farmers have no money, shops that once supplied the farmers etc have had to close, so yet more limited jobs lost. And yet, more people keep flooding into this Country wanting their share of milk and honey when the people who saved the milk and honey for these hard times now only get vinegar.
 
I think every country has its social problems and the only way to sort them out is for Governments to stop looking for another country to come and bail them out of their poor decisions. Step up, manage your own country to the best of your ability, ensure that that your own people (native or legal migrant) get the best of the best, TAX the huge companies (and the private billionaires) that are siphoning off money out of the country at the correct higher rates and give the battler a chance to get their nose above the water that is slowly drowning them. Stop pandering to other countries and making poor business deals that put your own country in more jeopardy. We can be a global community but each country needs to sort out its own problems before shoving its nose ( and more often then not greedy snouts) into other countries problems. NO country should go into debit giving aid they couldn't afford to another country, the aide should have been spent at home first, only then can the surplus be used to help our neighbours that are still struggling.

 

[Akasha72]

the problem we have is those running this country are all born with a silver spoon in their mouths. They've never had to worry about money as they were born into vast swathes of it. They talk about those living on the breadline but have no incline what it's like to have to choose between being warm and going hungry.
 
Last year they limited our nurses to a 1% payrise and then gave themselves a 11% one ... yeah your read that right

 

[ShinySideUp]

So, we now have a referendum date. I spent two hours last night looking at the pros and cons of a move out of Europe and those of staying in...
 
...and I am no nearer.
 
There are political heavyweights on both sides of the arguement so we can be sure that even those in the know cannot agree on which way to go. At this rate I can see myself tossing a coin when the referendum comes along.

 

[Akasha72]

I think in all honesty the fun will now begin. There will be scare mongering galore from the 'in' crowd and no one will actually tell us the truth. 
 
The biggest scare monger will be trade. The 'in' crowd will try to tell us that the likes of Nissan will up and leave the country and all those employed there will lose their jobs when the truth is more likely that nothing will change much. The likes of Nissan are well established with a good work force I fail to see how anything much will change if we vote to get out.
 
To me the only losers if we vote out will be the European parliament themselves. If we leave we take 56 million pound a day with us and without that I fail to see how the EU can continue.
 
I think it's very interested that Boris Jonson has announced he's joining the 'out' group. That's gonna hurt Mr Moron

 

[Far_King]

I heard a quote the other day, I can't remember it exactly but I think it went something along the lines of:

We are the worlds fifth largest economy
We head the commonwealth
We are part of the G7
We have trade with the rest of the world outside Europe that has nothing to do with us being in the EU.
 
 
Europe will still need to trade with us as they need our money and if we exit and take a huge pile of billions with us they'll still need our trade as they certainly couldn't do without that money.
 
I honestly have no idea what will happen. No one does, but bear in mind we never voted "in" in the first place!  It was a trade agreement that dragged us in and as far as I'm concerned the deal Cameron pushed for is not a good enough deal.  It's better than what we had before but it still highlights the control foreign governments exercise over us.

 

[the_lock_man]

I think in all honesty the fun will now begin. There will be scare mongering galore from the 'in' crowd and no one will actually tell us the truth. 
 
 

 
Do you not think there will be scaremongering from the "out" crowd also? Both sides will spin their rhetoric to make their view seem positive, and the other side negative. That's what every single politician ever does.
 
I personally think we have to suspend our political allegiances on this, we have to listen to the politicians of all sides, take everything both sides say with a pinch of salt, and make up our minds in as dispassionate a way as possible.
 
When I was younger, I always believed that the EU was fundamentally flawed, because the Commissioners are unelected, and I actually voted for James Goldsmith's Referendum Party.
 
Later, I took the view that we should be taking the lead in Europe to try to modify it to be more democratic, to make it into something that would benefit us.
Right now?

I genuinely don't know which way I'll vote.
 
One point. Italy should never have been allowed to join the Euro. Their economy didn't meet the criteria to join, but the rules were bent for political expediency - they wanted Italy in. They wanted the UK in, too, but the difference was that Italy wanted to join. 

 

[Akasha72]

I think the 'in' crowd will rely more on scare mongering than telling the truth but I think there will be a degree of it from the 'out' crowd too. I think they will use terrorism and immigrants to scare monger
 
I completely agree with you lock man regarding taking anything they say with a pinch of salt and making up our own minds. My mind is already made up, after 40 years (or how ever long it is) what have we gained from being part of the E.U? I can't see much evidence that it's been beneficial for us as a country. We've pumped in money to a gravy train I just feel could be better spent making our own country strong again.