Does The Loch-ness Monster Exist?

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texas_aggie, no, that doesn't satisfy my question, because 1) Nessie is not a crocodile (unless you can show otherwise) and 2) Can you even be sure that Nessie is a reptile? Since no one has found it you can't know that. If food is more plentiful elsewhere, why would you want to live in Loch Ness? Why wouldn't it just live in one of those other connected more-life-supporting waterways?

Have you ever head the saying "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof"? It really fits in this case, because conjecture and hypothesizing does not in any way whatsoever constitute proof. Is there any proof? I can answer that ... NO.
 
Bignose,

1) Nessie is not a crocodile (unless you can show otherwise)

I did not say "Nessie is a crocodile." I mearly presented an instance in nature where large animals may not require daily feedings to directly rebut
It would have to eat a lot every single day to remain alive...

2) Can you even be sure that Nessie is a reptile? Since no one has found it you can't know that.

Again, I never claimed "Nessie" was a reptile. See above.


"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof"

Great quote, and I fully agree. If you analyze my response, you will see I only claimed simple truths. 1) There are known cases in nature where large animals require infrequent feedings. 2) Metabolism is usually slowed in lower temperatures. 3) More nutrition may be available to Loch Ness than the amount produced directly in the murky waters of the Loch. 4) Salmon migration through the Loch proves there is more nutrition than you currently consider.

I made no claim of "Nessie's" existance. I have no new evidence to claim such. I simply did as requested...I addressed your questions directly.


Cheers! :good:
 
My point in saying "Nessie is not a crocodile" is that unless Nessie is a crocodile, the comparison is weak at best. Especially if Nessie isn't a reptile, which was my second point. Metabolism is usually slowed at lower temperatures, true, but unless you have a baseline metabolism to compare to, lower than what? Fish are also cold-blooded and need to eat far more often than once a year. Cold-blooded alone does not mean that you only need a little to eat. It doesn't really matter if salmon come through once a year, because the lake is still very empty of life compared to most lakes. That is the main point.
 
:shifty: That's the kind of response I like to see. Thank you for clarifying your point.

However, I believe you are limiting your vision on my response.

Though I only presented the Nile Crocadile as an example, there are plenty more. Bears that hybernate (mamals), frogs that freeze (amphibian), catfish in water holes in Africa that survive the dry season by sealing themselves in a mucous sack (fish), and who's to say Nessie isn't a reptile (though definately not crocadilian by description). All of these are examples of different classes of animals known to sustain life with for long periods (usually annual, sometimes longer) without nutrition intake.

If food is more plentiful elsewhere, why would you want to live in Loch Ness? Why wouldn't it just live in one of those other connected more-life-supporting waterways?


I do not know why an animal would choose to reside in it's location. And I do not have the ability to understand "why" an animal would reside anywhere. I do know that nature tends to find niches where competition is scarce. Why do lizards live in the desert? Why do polar bears live inside the arctic circle? Why do tube worms and white crabs (both unclassified to my knowlege) live in the immediate area surrounding lava vents devoid of oxygen?

Again, my arguments are not designed to support the existance of "Nessie," simply to refute arguments made that oppose the possibility without sound support. (Sound support is a subjective term, not a scientific term. I use it to emphasize that I have the right to choose which claims I intent to argue against.) It is not my intention, and never will be my intention, to prove the existance of "Nessie."
 
But hibernation is an entirely different stage of life. Unless you are implicitly saying that Nessie hibernates, then those comparisons are exceptionally weak, too. And then, even if Nessie did hibernate, it would have to eat a lot before hibernation occurs -- and again we're back to a food question. Large creatures demand a large amount of food. That is very sound. There are a precious few exceptions, but unless you know that Nessie is such an exception, why invoke it? Why not just assume that Nessie follows the same rules that 99.9% (or more!) of all creatures follow?

I'm sorry, but this has just become silliness, bring some proof to the table. Without proof, this is just fantasy talk, and my real interest is in real science. Supposition, and what-ifs and unfounded assumptions are not science. If you want to argue about the existence of Nessie, some real proof is going to have to be brought to the table.
 
Bignose what makes you think nessie would just eat fish or pondlife for want of a better word? There is alot of wildlife around he/she might want to eat, like sheep, deer, people or birds after all we are talking about a monster mwahahahaha :crazy:
 
I've stayed out of this for as long as I could......
but I'll add my tuppence worth.

given the number of species yet to be discovered in the worlds waterways,
there is something living in the loch that mankind has yet to catalogue, verify and name.

now that something could well be animal that is amphibious or fully aquatic
or even capable of leaving our planet entirely for periods of time. (yes I'm suggesting it is an alien visitor)
the point I'm making is scientifically speaking 'we' (mankind) do not know
and probably never will (at least in my lifetime).

IMHO people see what they want to see and for all those that have 'seen' Nessie
I don't doubt for one second that you truly believe that is exactly what you did see.
However, whatever it was you 'saw', I'm not prepared to call it Nessie or give it any other kind of label
(dinosaur, giant squid, man in a rubber suit) as I personally have not seen it or seen any evidence that it truly exists
 
Right folks, here come the references, nicely digested by:

Steuart Campbell, The Loch Ness Monster. The Evidence, Aberdeen University Press, 1986, rev ed. 1991.

In Chapter 1 (pp. 13-22), the author gives the background and discusses what can count as evidence. He points out that there are no large underwater tunnels or underwater caves in the loch; it's one of those smooth glaciated valleys that you find in northern Europe. Also any tunnel connecting it with the sea would drain it, as the loch is 16 metres above sea level. So whatever lives in the loch, according to Campbell, would have to stay there. As the lake has been probed with sonar and radar (chapter 4), any such caves or tunnels would have been found- as would the monster.

He also lists sources of possible deception in eyewitness accounts, such as water movement, swimming deer and otters, mirages, floating logs. Evidence from the Baker & Westwood expedition of 1962 (Campbell, p. 22) would seem to suggest that wave/wake phenomenons are probably the most common source of deception.

In chapter 2 (pp. 23-34) he goes through a series of eyewitness reports and discusses them in terms of possible sources of deception- particularly standing waves, otters and deer. There is a particularly interesting one of what was probably an otter: when first interviewed, the witness estimated its length at 2 metres, 3 years later it had "grown" to 9 metres (p. 32). Also, an interesting sketch of an eyewitness' impression of the monster juxtaposed to an artist's impression of a 2-year-old swimming deer.

In chapter 3 (pp. 35-50), Campbell goes through the 21 extant still photos (discussion summed up on pp. 112) and the evidence, including photographic angles, distances etc. It turns out you cannot rely on what people say about the conditions under which they took their photos.
It's pretty obvious that 7 of the pictures are hoaxes, 5 definitely of natural phenomena. Another few, discussed, in chapter 5, are pretty underwater pictures of, respectively, mud on the bottom of the loch, and a tree stump. The remaining are very unclear, but Campbell thinks it likely that they are also of natural phenomena.

And there are the movies- Chapter 4 (pp. 53-64, with summing-up on pp. 112-3)! Several of these are inaccessible, alleged to be locked in a bank vault- which means they can't be used as evidence. One, at least, is probable a hoax, one shows waterbirds, one is now, according to C, known to be of a dead horse. In fact, there does not seem to be any that cannot be explained in terms of natural phenomena or fakes.

Chapter 5 (pp. 65-74) is the underwater photography. The slight problem here is that the Rhines expedition who set up an underwater camera in the 1970s overestimated the depth of that strecth of lake which meant that the camera that should have been floating free in the water photographing anything that came swimming by was in fact rolling around on the loch bed, taking pictures of the mud and old rubbish there.

Finally, the sonar and radar- Chapter 6 (pp. 75-97). The first sonar was from a fishing boat- a little suspicious in itself as commercial fishing is not allowed in the Loch Ness, so why was the sonar on? Apparently, the skipper has later admitted it was a hoax. Other reports appear to have been of schools of fish.

Expeditions were arranged by Oxford and Cambridge in 1960, by Cambridge in 1962 and by Birmingham university in 1968, using sonar, but nothing conclusive was found. It was the 1962 expedition that swept the lake from end with a fleet of sonar-equipped boats and found nothing. The Academy of Applied Science did expeditions in 1970, 1972 and 1976, but it seems likely that the signals they picked up were of their own boats...; there were certainly serious methodological problems with the interpretation of the evidence. Another expedition in 1981-5 by the Loch Ness and Morar Project also got no evidence.

(For those who have never seen sonar in action, I may add that it can be extremely hard to interpret; things don't look anything like in real life)

There has been one radar report- unconfirmed, as far as I can make out.

To add my personal reflections to this, I would [point out to the posters who have postulated something, even if it's only an unknown species of fish, that there are several known species that would do just as well for creating these effects. If a shoal of unknown fish, why not a shoal of salmon? Instead of some weird salamander, why not the bog standard otter? If wake from a swimming monster, why not wake from a steamer (it is known that such wake can surface after the boat has passed out of sight)? The 1962 expedition found that wake from boats was a major source of deception for their crew.

As for those who believe in a plesiosaurus, they would need to explain how it got there (no evidence in sediment cores taken that the loch has ever been connected to the sea) and how it can manage to subsist in such cold temperatures.

Anyway, that's my scientific contribution for today.

Oh, and anyone who wants references to Campbell's sources, do let me know. It's not all lurking in mysterious bank vaults.
 
Oh, and about the two pictures shown us by xweetqtx: both those have been analysed (Campbell, pp. 37 and 39-40) and if their takers are truthful about where they said they saw them, then the sheer geography of the place means they must have been a lot closer to the object of their picture than they claim to be. In Wilson's case, this would have been about 30 metres away rather than some 200 as he claimed. Geometrical analysis suggests the object phtotographed is about 30 centimetres long, which would fit the suggestion of an otter's tail. The object photographed by Gray must also be a good deal smaller than he claimed; the suggestion of a swimming labrador with a stick in its mouth sounds good to me.
If by Lachlan, xweet means Lachlan Stuart, he has apparently admitted that his Nessie was constructed of bales of hay covered with tarpaulin; certainly, his earlier claims about the conditions in which the photo was taken cannot be correct (Campbell, p. 42). Surely the sun does not rise in the southwest even in Scotland?
 
no (in my opinion) how would it eat for it to survive it would need bucket loads of food. there were some eels found by the loch but it was proved that they were marine due to the contents of their stomachs)
 
no (in my opinion) how would it eat for it to survive it would need bucket loads of food.
just because an animal is big, doesn't mean that its food needs to be big too.
take the basking shark or whale shark both eats plankton and both reache massive sizes on that diet.
 
Hehe :p

Lochness.jpg


I drew this picture on my computer but found the monster on the internet lol

:music: "Nessie the elephant flapped her trunk and scared the hell out the scottish............" :music:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Cheers, Joemuz

keep the theories comeing
 
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