Discus are an endless money pit!

[Lajos_Detari]

I fully agree with @Colin_T .
Many of the Discus problems are created by the breeders.
I was telling a friend that we should boycott these fish.
The breeders gave us sick and poor quality fish which we have to keep using medications to cure them.

When I was visiting a fish shop which specialize in breeding Discus, I noticed that all their young Discus were breeding fast.
I told a friend not to buy from the shop as I suspect that the Discus are having gill flukes infection.
The shop even carry their own made medications for gill flukes. But the medication was totally useless. It seems to me that the flukes have become immune to their medication.

 

[Rocky998]

it's all good

The signature actually looks a lot better now and is easier to follow. Good job

Yay! Thanks.

 

[Rocky998]

I fully agree with @Colin_T .
Many of the Discus problems are created by the breeders.
I was telling a friend that we should boycott these fish.
The breeders gave us sick and poor quality fish which we have to keep using medications to cure them.

When I was visiting a fish shop which specialize in breeding Discus, I noticed that all their young Discus were breeding fast.
I told a friend not to buy from the shop as I suspect that the Discus are having gill flukes infection.
The shop even carry their own made medications for gill flukes. But the medication was totally useless. It seems to me that the flukes have become immune to their medication.

Sadly, no matter how much you "boycott", they will keep selling them and people who think they can be in a fish bowl will still buy them... Sorry to say, but one person who stops buying something won't change much and I doubt everyone else is patient enough to learn real aquarium skills

 

[itiwhetu]

Everyone stops buying them. That is the point. Put the message out there. I am planning to buy Discus from a mate who has raised them with their parents in a tank that is planted, and god forbid full of germs.

 

[Rocky998]

Everyone stops buying them. That is the point. Put the message out there. I am planning to buy Discus from a mate who has raised them with their parents in a tank that is planted, and god forbid full of germs.

Sad thing is, a lot of people are just. Plain. Stubborn and don't care about a "little fish"

 

[Colin_T]

The shop even carry their own made medications for gill flukes. But the medication was totally useless. It seems to me that the flukes have become immune to their medication.

The shops tend to use medications all the time and this causes the flukes and other disease organisms to become resistant to medications. When you get the fish they get sick and can't be treated because of drug resistance.

Salt and Praziquantel can be used to treat gill flukes and might be worth trying if you get some. Otherwise copper works too.

 

[Lajos_Detari]

The shops tend to use medications all the time and this causes the flukes and other disease organisms to become resistant to medications. When you get the fish they get sick and can't be treated because of drug resistance.

Salt and Praziquantel can be used to treat gill flukes and might be worth trying if you get some. Otherwise copper works too.

Yes, actually when I first started keeping Blue Rams, I used Praziquantel but it kept coming after every 1-2 months of treatments.
When I thought I had killed all the gill flukes, they would come back again.
I also tried to use Sterazin (by Waterlife) but it didn't kill all the gill flukes.

And when I started to keep Discus, the gill flukes came again.
But this time I switched to Flubendazole.
I was only able to kill all the flukes after treatments with Flubendazole for 3 months + and another 3 weeks+ with salt.
I also did Potassium Permanganate dip once a week plus changing tanks and cleaning the tanks in between.
Anyway, I no longer keep Discus as I had given them away when I had to go for eye surgery.

A few months ago, I started to keep some Red Head Tapajos, Geophagus Sveni and Satanoperca Daemon.
The flukes came again but this can be either skin flukes or gill flukes or mixed of both.
First, I started with Sterazin for 3-4 weeks and I saw much improvement as there were less scratching for all the fish.
But still, it didn't kill off all the flukes.
Sterazin has 3 ingredients - Acriflavine, Malachite Green and Piperazine Citrate.
The Malachite Green is effective in treating the flukes.
But then I realized that the Acriflavine may kill the beneficial bacteria in my tank.

Then I switched to Praziquantel + salt. But the fish were scratching like crazy even with body shakings.
So, I stopped using them after 4 days.

So, now I switched to Seachem Paraguard which also contains Malachite Green and other ingredients.
ParaGuard™ is the only fish and filter safe aldehyde based (10% by weight) parasite control product available (for parasites on fish). Unlike highly toxic and difficult to use formalin based medications, ParaGuard™ contains no formaldehyde or methanol and will not alter pH. ParaGuard™ employs a proprietary, synergistic blend of aldehydes, malachite green, and fish protective polymers that effectively and efficiently eradicates many ectoparasites (e.g. ich, etc.) and external fungal/bacterial/viral lesions (e.g., fin rot).
At the moment, the fish condition seem to have improved with very little scratching.
But one thing bad about Seachem Paraguard is, it will leave something like a layer of slime/sticky stuff on all the glasses.
It's very hard to clean and remove them from the glasses. I have to wipe the glasses many times.

Some questions:
1)Do you think that the Coppersafe medication for ich is strong enough to kill the flukes?

2)If I used salt, what is the best dosage to kill the ich?
I used 1.5 table spoon of salt for every 20 liters of water but it didn't seem to have effect on the flukes.
One of my lfs staff advised me to use up to about 6 tablespoons of salt for 20 liter of water. I was thinking that this is too much salt.
What do you think?

3)I saw this anti ich medication which contains Formalin + Malachite Green(the information is printed on the box)
Do you think it can work?
https://www.interpet.co.uk/Products/Test-Treat/Fish-Treatments/Anti-White-Spot-Plus-100ml

Or this one?
Under the same brand Interpret, they have this medication to treat flukes which contains Copper EDTA, Formalin, Quinine bisulfate and Benzalkonium Chloride.
https://www.interpet.co.uk/Products...tments/Anti-Parasite,-Slime-Velvet-Plus-100ml


Thanks in advance!

 

[Rocky998]

Yes, actually when I first started keeping Blue Rams, I used Praziquantel but it kept coming after every 1-2 months of treatments.
When I thought I had killed all the gill flukes, they would come back again.
I also tried to use Sterazin (by Waterlife) but it didn't kill all the gill flukes.

And when I started to keep Discus, the gill flukes came again.
But this time I switched to Flubendazole.
I was only able to kill all the flukes after treatments with Flubendazole for 3 months + and another 3 weeks+ with salt.
I also did Potassium Permanganate dip once a week plus changing tanks and cleaning the tanks in between.
Anyway, I no longer keep Discus as I had given them away when I had to go for eye surgery.

A few months ago, I started to keep some Red Head Tapajos, Geophagus Sveni and Satanoperca Daemon.
The flukes came again but this can be either skin flukes or gill flukes or mixed of both.
First, I started with Sterazin for 3-4 weeks but it didn't kill off all the flukes though I saw much improvement as there were less scratching for all the fish
Sterazin has 3 ingredients - Acriflavine, Malachite Green and Piperazine Citrate.
The Malachite Green is effective in treating the flukes but I was afraid that Acriflavine will kill the beneficial bacteria in my tank.

Then I switched to Praziquantel + salt. But the fish were scratching like crazy even with body shakings.
So, I stopped using them after 3-4 days.

So, now I switched to Seachem Paraguard which also contains Malachite Green and other ingredients.
ParaGuard™ is the only fish and filter safe aldehyde based (10% by weight) parasite control product available (for parasites on fish). Unlike highly toxic and difficult to use formalin based medications, ParaGuard™ contains no formaldehyde or methanol and will not alter pH. ParaGuard™ employs a proprietary, synergistic blend of aldehydes, malachite green, and fish protective polymers that effectively and efficiently eradicates many ectoparasites (e.g. ich, etc.) and external fungal/bacterial/viral lesions (e.g., fin rot).
At the moment, the fish condition seem to have improved with very little scratching.
But one thing bad about Seachem Paraguard is, it will leave something like a layer of slime/sticky stuff on all the glasses.
It's very hard to clean and remove them from the glasses. I have to wipe the glasses many times.

Some questions:
1)Do you think that the Coppersafe medication for ich is strong enough to kill the flukes?

2)If I used salt, what is the best dosage to kill the ich?
I used 1.5 table spoon of salt for every 20 liters for water but it didn't seem to have effect on the flukes.
One of my lfs staff advise me to use up to about 6 tablespoons of salt for 20 liter of water. I was thinking that this is too much salt.
What do you think?

Thanks in advance!

I cant answer any of the questions but DANG that was a lot to read...

 

[itiwhetu]

I cant answer any of the questions but DANG that was a lot to read...

I'm the same as you, plus I don't even want to try and understand it all

 

[Colin_T]

Copper should kill gill flukes if used at a normal recommended dose to treat white spot or velvet.

Salt doesn't kill white spot (Ichthyophthirius).

I normally recommend using 2 heaped tablespoons of rock salt for every 20 litres (5 gallons) of water to treat gill flukes. Keep the salt in the tank for 3-4 weeks to kill any baby flukes that hatch. If you have livebearers, goldfish or rainbowfish, you can increase that up to 4 heaped tablespoons per 20 litres. However, 4 heaped tablespoons per 20 litres will kill aquarium plants and some softwater fishes.

If you use Praziquantel to treat intestinal worms or gill flukes, treat the tank once a week for 3-4 weeks to kill any baby worms that hatch.

---------------------
SALT
Using Salt to Treat Fish Health Issues.
For some fish diseases you can use salt (sodium chloride) to treat the ailment rather than using a chemical based medication. Salt is relatively safe and is regularly used in the aquaculture industry to treat food fish for diseases. Salt has been successfully used to treat minor fungal and bacterial infections, as well as a number of external protozoan infections. Salt alone will not treat whitespot (Ichthyophthirius) or Velvet (Oodinium) but will treat most other types of protozoan infections in freshwater fishes.

You can add rock salt (often sold as aquarium salt) or swimming pool salt to the aquarium at the dose rate of 1 heaped tablespoon per 20 litres of water. If there is no improvement after 48 hours you can double that dose rate so there is 2 heaped tablespoons of salt per 20 litres.

If you only have livebearers (guppies, platies, swordtails, mollies), goldfish or rainbowfish in the tank you can double that dose rate, so you would add 2 heaped tablespoons per 20 litres and if there is no improvement after 48 hours, then increase it so there is a total of 4 heaped tablespoons of salt per 20 litres.

Keep the salt level like this for at least 2 weeks but no longer than 4 weeks otherwise kidney damage can occur. Kidney damage is more likely to occur in fish from soft water (tetras, Corydoras, angelfish, Bettas & gouramis, loaches) that are exposed to high levels of salt for an extended period of time, and is not an issue with livebearers, rainbowfish or other salt tolerant species.

The salt will not affect the beneficial filter bacteria but the higher dose rate (4 heaped tablespoons per 20 litres) will affect some plants and some snails. The lower dose rate (1-2 heaped tablespoons per 20 litres) will not affect fish, plants, shrimp or snails.

After you use salt and the fish have recovered, you do a 10% water change each day for a week using only fresh water that has been dechlorinated. Then do a 20% water change each day for a week. Then you can do bigger water changes after that. This dilutes the salt out of the tank slowly so it doesn't harm the fish.

If you do water changes while using salt, you need to treat the new water with salt before adding it to the tank. This will keep the salt level stable in the tank and minimise stress on the fish.

When you first add salt, add the salt to a small bucket of tank water and dissolve the salt. Then slowly pour the salt water into the tank near the filter outlet. Add the salt over a couple of minutes.

 

[itiwhetu]

Do you know what fascinates me about this stuff? We are happy to treat our fish with substances that are carcinogenic to cure a disease. Just imagine if that is what we did to ourselves, give us a carcinogen because you have the flu.

 

[Rocky998]

Do you know what fascinates me about this stuff? We are happy to treat our fish with substances that are carcinogenic to cure a disease. Just imagine if that is what we did to ourselves, give us a carcinogen because you have the flu.

Drink and spray a few cans of bug poison if you have lice. Usually works, survival chance for you is slim though

 

[Lajos_Detari]

Sadly, no matter how much you "boycott", they will keep selling them and people who think they can be in a fish bowl will still buy them... Sorry to say, but one person who stops buying something won't change much and I doubt everyone else is patient enough to learn real aquarium skills

Yes, I agree.
There are too many new fish keepers who get so excited when seeing the fish.
They will buy all the fish... LOL

Whenever I visit our LFS, there will be new fish keepers especially just before the public holidays..

Only the experience fish keepers will stay away from them.

 

[Lajos_Detari]

Copper should kill gill flukes if used at a normal recommended dose to treat white spot or velvet.

Salt doesn't kill white spot (Ichthyophthirius).

I normally recommend using 2 heaped tablespoons of rock salt for every 20 litres (5 gallons) of water to treat gill flukes. Keep the salt in the tank for 3-4 weeks to kill any baby flukes that hatch. If you have livebearers, goldfish or rainbowfish, you can increase that up to 4 heaped tablespoons per 20 litres. However, 4 heaped tablespoons per 20 litres will kill aquarium plants and some softwater fishes.

If you use Praziquantel to treat intestinal worms or gill flukes, treat the tank once a week for 3-4 weeks to kill any baby worms that hatch.

---------------------
SALT
Using Salt to Treat Fish Health Issues.
For some fish diseases you can use salt (sodium chloride) to treat the ailment rather than using a chemical based medication. Salt is relatively safe and is regularly used in the aquaculture industry to treat food fish for diseases. Salt has been successfully used to treat minor fungal and bacterial infections, as well as a number of external protozoan infections. Salt alone will not treat whitespot (Ichthyophthirius) or Velvet (Oodinium) but will treat most other types of protozoan infections in freshwater fishes.

You can add rock salt (often sold as aquarium salt) or swimming pool salt to the aquarium at the dose rate of 1 heaped tablespoon per 20 litres of water. If there is no improvement after 48 hours you can double that dose rate so there is 2 heaped tablespoons of salt per 20 litres.

If you only have livebearers (guppies, platies, swordtails, mollies), goldfish or rainbowfish in the tank you can double that dose rate, so you would add 2 heaped tablespoons per 20 litres and if there is no improvement after 48 hours, then increase it so there is a total of 4 heaped tablespoons of salt per 20 litres.

Keep the salt level like this for at least 2 weeks but no longer than 4 weeks otherwise kidney damage can occur. Kidney damage is more likely to occur in fish from soft water (tetras, Corydoras, angelfish, Bettas & gouramis, loaches) that are exposed to high levels of salt for an extended period of time, and is not an issue with livebearers, rainbowfish or other salt tolerant species.

The salt will not affect the beneficial filter bacteria but the higher dose rate (4 heaped tablespoons per 20 litres) will affect some plants and some snails. The lower dose rate (1-2 heaped tablespoons per 20 litres) will not affect fish, plants, shrimp or snails.

After you use salt and the fish have recovered, you do a 10% water change each day for a week using only fresh water that has been dechlorinated. Then do a 20% water change each day for a week. Then you can do bigger water changes after that. This dilutes the salt out of the tank slowly so it doesn't harm the fish.

If you do water changes while using salt, you need to treat the new water with salt before adding it to the tank. This will keep the salt level stable in the tank and minimise stress on the fish.

When you first add salt, add the salt to a small bucket of tank water and dissolve the salt. Then slowly pour the salt water into the tank near the filter outlet. Add the salt over a couple of minutes.

Thank you!

 

[Rocky998]

Yes, I agree.
There are too many new fish keepers who get so excited when seeing the fish.
They will buy all the fish... LOL

Whenever I visit our LFS, there will be new fish keepers especially just before the public holidays..

Only the experience fish keepers will stay away from them.

I was witnessing at petsmart these two women buying what seemed to be their first ever fish... Sounded like they didnt even knew their fish needed a heater... They legit asked the pet store employee, "What all do we need for the fish"... Its a good question... But not at the right place and you have to do a ton more home work than just asking a pet store employee for a shopping list.