Cycling….

[backtotropical]

A month would be typical for a fishless cycle's length without any form of help. Under a week is adverage if you can get even a scrap of mature media... A couple of months is the longest I've known without help, and 2 weeks the shortest...

Nitrosomas and Nitrobacter are NOT the filter bacteria we are concered with, though aquarium litriture still bands these two species about as the true nitrifyers. Sligtly off-topic though, but Ludwig might be interested... Look up Timothy A Hovenec's research into filter bacteria, the only scientific research into filter bacteria carried out to date, and you will find that these two species don't do the biological filtering in a mature tank. These bacteria are dominant in souerage plants, where ammonia and nitrite is too high to allow an aquariums bacteria to thrive. There are 4 papers, one showing NitroSomas and NitroBacter are not present in significant numbers in an established aquarium, one showing that NitroSococcus is the AOB in Freshwater, another showing NitroSpira is the NOB in Freshwater and a final one showing the true AOB and NOB's in Marine, where you're surgestion of NitriSomas is correct for the AOB and another is the main one for NOB in marine...

The true nitrifyers are NitroSpira for NitrIte-NitrAte conversion and NitroSococcus for Ammonia-NitrIte conversion

All the best
Rabbut

That's not my understanding Rabbut. I understand the nitrifiers in freshwater to be Nitrosomonas (AOB) and Nitrospira (NOB).

I think the confusion has arisen because it was previously thought that Nitrosomonas Europaea was the predominant AOB in aquaria, but Hovanec found that in fact it was Nitrosomonas Marina.

Heres a quote from one of Hovanec's papers, 'Identification of Bacteria Responsible for Ammonia Oxidation in Freshwater Aquaria' - Applied and Environmental Microbiology, Dec. 2001.

Enrichments of the AOB strains were added to newly established aquaria to determine their ability to accelerate the establishment of ammonia oxidation. Enrichments containing the Nitrosomonas marina-like AOB strain were most efficient at accelerating ammonia oxidation in newly established aquaria. Furthermore, if the Nitrosomonas marina-like AOB strain was present in the original enrichment, even one with other AOB, only the Nitrosomonas marina-like AOB strain was present in aquaria after nitrification was established.

The more surprising of his discoveries was that Nitrobacter aren't actually the predominant NOB in aquaria as previously thought. Hovanec's research showed that the predominant NOB in aquaria is in fact Nitrospira.

 

[Ludwig Venter]

Eish!!!... Now we're getting verrrry technical on here, but yea!!... thanks for sharing that.... I'll make a copy, & slowly peruse it.... I do need to fully understand.

 

[JustKia]

Which all goes to show you can't trust all research, no matter where you look LOL - having acquired the names of the bacs from a book on tropical fishkeeping (I forget the name/author) I was flicking through at the LFS earlier today, only to find that actually it probably isn't 100% right - you live and learn.

 

[OldMan47]

Kia, it wasn't many years ago that everyone knew the other bacteria were the ones involved because they had been found to be the active bacteria in sewage treatment plants. Many of the books you will find still have not caught up with the science. That aspect of fishkeeping is like many other pursuits in that the time from research to book printing can be many years and the old ideas will continue to be published for a while. From a practical point of view, it doesn't matter which bacteria are dominant in your filter as long as there are enough present to deal with the fish's wastes.

 

[andywg]

A month would be typical for a fishless cycle's
The true nitrifyers are NitroSpira for NitrIte-NitrAte conversion and NitroSococcus for Ammonia-NitrIte conversion

All the best
Rabbut

That's not my understanding Rabbut. I understand the nitrifiers in freshwater to be Nitrosomonas (AOB) and Nitrospira (NOB).

I think Rabbut has just got the bacteria backwards. Nitrosococcus spp appear to be the marine AOB whilst, as you state above, Nitrosomonas spp appear to be the FW AOB. Nitrospira spp appear to handle NOB in both freshwater and marine situations.

I suppose in answer to the original question, maybe we do go over the top about cycling, but if it benefits the fish, then why not?

And yet almost no one points out to members that if their community fish accept flake then feeding them anything else is detracting from the ideal diet and as such will no doubt have an effect on the long term health and longevity of the fish.

 

[rabbut]

I suppose in answer to the original question, maybe we do go over the top about cycling, but if it benefits the fish, then why not?

And yet almost no one points out to members that if their community fish accept flake then feeding them anything else is detracting from the ideal diet and as such will no doubt have an effect on the long term health and longevity of the fish.

I think the suitability of flake as the main part of a Diet realy depends on who's done the research into what the fish need, and then who's designed the food to contain that, and what speies it is being fed to vs what species it was designed for... Many fish in the hobby, so shurely most have slightly different nutritional requirements. Are we supposed to keep one flake per species and somehow train the fish to only eat "their" flake? Personally, I think the key to Diet is veriety... Feed prepaired foods mainly, but keep a few brands of flake on the shelf and alternate them. Nothing but dried food can lead to boyancy issues after a while though, it would appear that flake has a habbit of caursing blockages... Feeding something fresh, frozen or live once a week "seams" to avoid that issue though...

Sorry for the slip-up with the bacteria names Half right, but the other half wasn't left... All cleared up thanks to Andy and BTT. IMO, knowing the true bacteria cultures that are responcible for filtering and aquarium is of secondary importance unless you are trying to choose an off the shelf "instant cycle" product, in which case almost all are a pile of c?#!... For all other applications, just have faith that the right ones will come along to help you out

All the best
Rabbut

 

[prankster705]

6 month cycles are never really recommended, I think you might be confusing the generally offered terms of cycled and well established... The term cycling usually refers to there being enough bacteria to convert ammonia to nitrite and nitrite to nitrate. The term well established tank does however usually refer to tanks being of a certain age of 6 or so months, and is usually recommended for some of the more sensitive fish, for this I've so far heard of 2 different reasons, 1 of them being that generally if a tank has gone without any major complications for 6 months it's usually considered stable and far less likely to crash than a new set up. The other reason I've heard of and do not really have a personal opinion about is that over time a bio film forms over tank and filter surfaces which is capable of handling more intrusive substances than just ammonia and nitrite, while I'm not particularly sure on what they're supposed to be and what they're supposed to handle, older tanks usually seem more stable than new ones. With sensitive fish that might not take well to big fluctuations and with less experienced keepers, I think it is actually a very good advice as it keeps people from losing many new fish.

Going back to if cycling is beneficial... 4 or so years ago my mom used to take care of the tank, the lfs idea was that all media has to be rinsed under tap water and that water should be changed once a month. Fish never faired really well and were consistently having problems with extremely short lifes. Than I've discovered the beauties of the internet and the nitrogen cycle, took the tank over, started cleaning the tank weekly, never washed the media under tap water and the life spans suddenly started increasing by a lot, so a good mature filter media and water changes are good practice in my opinion.

Another thing I would like to note are plants, they are the best natural filtration possible and a very well planted aquarium with a low bio load might not even need a bio filter, maybe not even any mechanical filtration. I've noticed that ever since I have plants in my aquarium fish seem happier, colors are nicer and they are more active, might be due to the more natural look or it might be better water quality or most likely the combination of both.

In the end, fish-less cycling is a good practice which is proven to reduce trauma with new fish keepers, I think that it is a good widely recommended practice because it's simple and saves a lot of grief. It can probably be avoided, but personally I would recommend it to new fish keepers simply because it saves trouble to new fish keepers in the long run.

It might be a bit like the 1" per gallon rule that used to be almost enforced and accepted almost religiously, it's a good practice for beginners, but not a must if you know what you're doing. Speaking from personal experience it is utter rubbish (I have ~40" of fish in a 20 gallon) for determining max stocking, as long as the filters can keep up with it.

Going on to testing - it's one again a good practice to new fish keepers as it gives them a rough idea of what they should be looking for and gives them a warning or provides them with some reassurance. Personally, I haven't tested my water in over a year, decided to do it after I've seen this thread, got ammonia 0 ppm, nitrites 0 ppm, nitrates 5-10 ppm (difficult to tell from the color), which is basically what it has been a year ago, that being said with no testing, I've had no diseases or disease related deaths in the past 2 years, so testing is not really important imho, after you get an idea of what you're supposed to be doing.

I hope I've provided some useful information in this wall of text.

 

[andywg]

I think the suitability of flake as the main part of a Diet realy depends on who's done the research into what the fish need, and then who's designed the food to contain that, and what speies it is being fed to vs what species it was designed for... Many fish in the hobby, so shurely most have slightly different nutritional requirements.

Most fish have broadly similar needs with the carnivores requiring more protein (as noted by protein pellets). I doubt a neon tetra requires a diet that dissimilar to guppy in terms of the balance of nutrients taken in.

Nothing but dried food can lead to boyancy issues after a while though, it would appear that flake has a habbit of caursing blockages... Feeding something fresh, frozen or live once a week "seams" to avoid that issue though...

And yet many people feed at least some of their fish purely on dried food and have never encountered the problems with buoyancy. I know my small community FW tank has nothing but dry food and my father in law's 3 foot long koi have had nowt but dry. My 3 foot catfish tank has all dry save for the odd bit of prawn that isn't eaten by the SW fish which gets tossed to them, though at roughly one prawn per fortnight between something like 30-40 fish, I doubt many of them actually get any prawn.

Has anyone ever contacted the food manufacturers to see if they are aware of any potential issues? Seems strange that they would develop something which causes such issues. There is a lot of research into what fish need to grow as a result of work on farmed fish. I find it strange that members of this forum feel they know more about dietary requirements than those whose jobs it is to study and grow fish.

I personally feel that the buoyancy issue is not related to diet but something else, such as application. I know my flakes food I use on my SW tanks says you should not let the fish eat any of the flake before it has been in the water for about a second.

Sorry for the slip-up with the bacteria names Half right, but the other half wasn't left... All cleared up thanks to Andy and BTT. IMO, knowing the true bacteria cultures that are responcible for filtering and aquarium is of secondary importance unless you are trying to choose an off the shelf "instant cycle" product, in which case almost all are a pile of c?#!... For all other applications, just have faith that the right ones will come along to help you out

No apology needed; I was trying to point out that you did in fact have the right information but you had just switched the SW and FW AOB around which is far from a fundamental error. You will note that at this point it only seems to be the bacteria listed above, and even then it is only reduced to Genus level, the exact species are not entirely known (or important as you note). Knowledge of the Genera involved can be of use when looking at chloramination as the studies into its effectiveness found increased levels of the same bacteria as we cultivate in the water of systems treated with chloramine, but again this is somewhat specialist and applied.


Prankster makes some good points above, but I would comment on his statement on plants as the most effective filter. Assuming he was talking more colloquially (which is a huge compliment to his language skills) then I believe that plants are not quite as good as algae as a filter (though both come under the Kingdom Flora so scientifically speaking Prankster is still right on the money). Algae tends to be less demanding in their conditions to grow. You only need to look at how easy it is to set up an algae turf scrubber compared to the level of care needed to get plants up to the point of effective filtration is a bit more demanding.

 

[petertr]

Just read through this thread - its a good read. Well done to those with strong opinions who have kept from shouting too much


I think a lot of the OPs comments stem from the idea of this 6 month timescale. No idea where that came from - I've seen many people complete a fishless cycle on here, and they've been around the 3-5 weeks mark.


But fishless cycling is still only last resort of sorts. If you know anyone else with a tank, you simply steal some filter media from them - and you're off to a flyer.

 

[andywg]

But fishless cycling is still only last resort of sorts. If you know anyone else with a tank, you simply steal some filter media from them - and you're off to a flyer.

Very true. All my tanks are clones from my original 4 foot tank which now serves as a sump to my SW system.

 

[rabbut]

I think the suitability of flake as the main part of a Diet realy depends on who's done the research into what the fish need, and then who's designed the food to contain that, and what speies it is being fed to vs what species it was designed for... Many fish in the hobby, so shurely most have slightly different nutritional requirements.

Most fish have broadly similar needs with the carnivores requiring more protein (as noted by protein pellets). I doubt a neon tetra requires a diet that dissimilar to guppy in terms of the balance of nutrients taken in.

Nothing but dried food can lead to boyancy issues after a while though, it would appear that flake has a habbit of caursing blockages... Feeding something fresh, frozen or live once a week "seams" to avoid that issue though...

And yet many people feed at least some of their fish purely on dried food and have never encountered the problems with buoyancy. I know my small community FW tank has nothing but dry food and my father in law's 3 foot long koi have had nowt but dry. My 3 foot catfish tank has all dry save for the odd bit of prawn that isn't eaten by the SW fish which gets tossed to them, though at roughly one prawn per fortnight between something like 30-40 fish, I doubt many of them actually get any prawn.

Has anyone ever contacted the food manufacturers to see if they are aware of any potential issues? Seems strange that they would develop something which causes such issues. There is a lot of research into what fish need to grow as a result of work on farmed fish. I find it strange that members of this forum feel they know more about dietary requirements than those whose jobs it is to study and grow fish.

I personally feel that the buoyancy issue is not related to diet but something else, such as application. I know my flakes food I use on my SW tanks says you should not let the fish eat any of the flake before it has been in the water for about a second.

OK, purely flake as a diet in a tank that is sparesely planted is more prone to it's occupants getting swim bladder issues if fresh/live/frozen food isn't offered regularly IME. In a community tank for trops though, you typically have lots of plants, and fish will eat some of that plant matter at times when hungry between meals... Likewise in a pond, Koi are scavengers, so they will take in mulm, pond plants, algea e.t.c in the pond in which they are kept very readily...

I suppose this observation could be down to something environmental and it is coinsidence that it appears to affect sparse tanks that are only fed dry... This is afterall just an abservation. There dose seem to be a trend with it though, with other keepers. When asking questions, you usualy find that most people asking you in a LFS for advise on swim bladder and/or boyancy issues tend to feed solely dry feeds and don't have anything else available to the fish to eat...

All the best
Rabbut

 

[eldomingo]

i have 3 tanks and my first was fishless cycled for about 3-4 days and then i got 2 platies and 2 mollies. i was then told to bring a water sample to my LFS 2 weeks later and if all the levels were okay, then i could buy 4 more fish. one of my mollies died but that was it and i bought a pearl gourami who is still alive and well today and all my original fish survived up until a couple of months ago when i had a really bad outbreak of something that i still don't know quite what it was. both my other tanks have been 'cloned' (one's cycling right now) and none of my fish in my other 70l have been ill at any time during the time i've had them (touch wood). i have no problem with fish/less cycling because i think either works although i had more problems with following the instructions given to me by my LFS than i did by doing it all myself and i only own one of those strip test things and i think they're broke anyway.

 

[Jazzzz]

3-4 days is not really cycling it

This topic is a really interresting read

 

[eldomingo]

well, by fishless cycled i meant had the filter turned on and stuff

 

[prankster705]

Andy - 1st of all thx for the English comment, I'm trying .

Yes, algea turf scrubbers can most likely be the best/easiest implementation of using plants to remove harmful substances from the water (I've actually read up on them since you've advertised them everywhere , seems like a good solution), however I think that you could achieve a good result with a sufficient amount of "real" plants and a low bio-load. I know there is a Portuguese guy on mfk that keeps an outdoor greenhouse setup year round with only plants acting as filters - no real "filters" as we're used to . He has even had success keeping rays this way, so it seems to be a potentially successful solution that could probably be implemented on a smaller scale as well. I've talked to some people that have been into aquatics here locally for a long time and all of them seem to remember that a tank needs many plants and little fish, which might be the answer why even without any cycling many people have succeeded and many beginners have not.

Whichever the case I think that "real" plants are mostly a nice addition to a tank, even if only for being aesthetically pleasing and providing a more natural habitat, if the fish you keep permit you to have them anyway. I personally wouldn't rely solely on them, but that's because I like to overstock, would be a nice challenge to see if it can be done on a smaller scale though.