Cycling….

The first tank I had, got "fish-in cycled" as your's Ludwig, and, like yours, it appeared to work. I noticed after though, that many of the fish died earlyer than they should, loosing a year down to 6 months of expectred life if they went through the cycle... Since then I have "cloned" tanks or "fishless cycled" them, and the problems with shorter life-spans have gone away. :good: This makes me recomend the latter methods over fish-in cycling when asked for ethical reasons, though your method can work well if you take actions to reduce risks. These actions can include stocking slowly, using old decor, dosing salt for the first few months and doing generous waterchanges fairly regularly :nod: If done right, and fish-in cycle will not kill fish and will appear to work, but IME, it would appear to shorten the lives of the fish involved :sad: Which method, when done correctly, is best? Well, that's one for personal opinions and dibates...

Re knowing your water stats. I would argue that most people still do not. They know, generaly, that ammonia and nitrite are toxic, thanks to their local dealer if they are good, and that they need to be kept low. They mostly don't know why, and just understand that this is to stop fish from being poisoned. What people don't realise is that any detectable level of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate is poisoning their fish, and the "maximum" level's are recomendations made by one or more people and their opinions... They generaly don't know why those levels have been chosen, or how these three poisons are affecting their fish. Add into this the faff of pH, GH and KH and most aquarists are stuck in the middle of a vast mine field... :crazy: We still haven't got into the magnesium, calsium, Phosphates, copper, DOC's e.t.c that marine fish keepers use either. Admitedly, i am still learning about the last five, and other chemicals, that are relivant in marine tanks :good:

All the best
Rabbut
 
Ludwig, I'm a newbie compared to your years of experience. However, I have 8 tanks, neither of which was fishlessly cycled. Two were cycled with fish, and the other 6 were "cloned". I tend to think that some get very "passionate" about their views. Who knows if a Betta is actually happier in a 5gal tank as opposed to a bowl, yet some will be very indignant if you admit to keeping one in a bowl..... Who knows what size schools fish actually prefer, although some will be sure you need 6 or 8 or more... who knows the signs of a "happy" fish...We are after all, keeping them in boxes of water. I'm sure their lives would be more natural if left alone, and not kept as pets. I tend to ignore a lot of posts that are overly "passionate" and perhaps "unreasonable" , especially those that make a newbie feel like a serial killer, and makes someone who keeps an Oscar in a 30gal tank feel like a sadist. We all tend to disagree somewhat on a lot of issues. Everyone has their own views and tend to do things their way. It doesn't make it wrong. Fishkeeping is a wonderful hobby, but some like to make it more high stress than it actually is....
Now, I've strayed a little from the main question, and I'll get off the soap box!
 
I must say, that I appreciate the manner in which this sensitive issue is discussed and debated.... (nobody attacking anyone... which is the norm with most issues of this nature).....

However, to me, it is not yet conclusive from the answers... It appears, that the rule is applicable to newbies, only to assist them through the first phase of their adopted new hobby, and thereafter, once they have gained experience.... the sky's the limit....

The main clause at the opening, which I have a major problem with, is the issue that some people suggests a six month fishless cycling period... Geez!!!!... If I wanna keep fish, & have to stare at a bare tank for 6 months, I'd be discouraged....

Let's agree that some sort of cycling, & if you are lucky, cloning is advisable..... but let's also agree that ( even 3 months) is ridiculous???? (question,... not a statement).
 
In regards to 6 months cycling - I haven't come across anyone saying that, but would have to agree (as a newbie) that it seems unreasonable, and would be discouraged if that was the "acceptable" route.
That said I've always been one to seek advice, mull it over and then make my own decision, which doesn't neccessarily agree with the advice I have been given.

At a base scientific level it would appear that there are 3 main requirements - a suitable sized colony of nitrosomonas, a suitable sized colony of nitrobacter and clean dechlorinated water - how you obtain these (fishless, cloning, etc) shouldn't really be an issue, if you have them then you have them that's it really.
There are levels of ammonia, nitrItes and nitrAtes that have been shown to harm fish, I expect if it's really broken down then different fish are affected at different rates and by varying amounts. So, it would be fair and advisable to avoid exposing the fish to those levels.

Doesn't it come down to good old common sense in the end though? half a dozen danios in a 400L aren't really going to produce much waste and you're probably never going to see much of a cycle even if you added half a dozen small fish each week or fortnight. On the other hand if you went and squeezed half a dozen (juvie) arrowanas or red tail catfish into a 200L you're going too see your water stats go through the roof pretty quick.
 
I have started many tanks in my time in the hobby, but only the last 2 have been cycled fishlessly (if that's a word :lol: ).

As has been said, fishless cycling is relatively new in the hobby and is only really widely publicised by the internet forums such as this one.

I would never use fish to cycle a tank again as I now know better. I understand that many people still do for various reasons like their LFS told them to, they've been doing it that way for years, or maybe they just simply can't get it to work.

Fish-In cycling does work, no doubt about it, and with frequent water changes, any damage to the fish can be limited, but with scientific research now available which suggests that even very small ammonia concentrations can be detrimental to the long-term health of fish, I can't justify fish-in cycling when a more humane method is available.

I've never heard of a 6 month fishless cycle, and i would say that 3 months is rare in my experience. A cycle should take 3 weeks but complications do arise. I imagine these will gradually be ironed out over time as we learn more about the bacteria and the process itself.

Fishless cycling essentially prepares the filter to handle the waste the fish will produce, effectively eliminating any damage from ammonia or nitrite which may be caused by using fish-in cycling, and for me, whether you are new to the hobby or an old-timer, surely that gives only one answer.

I suppose in answer to the original question, maybe we do go over the top about cycling, but if it benefits the fish, then why not?

Ask the fish what they'd prefer. I bet i know what the answer would be.................................
 
You're just so rightKia

In the old days however,... we did talk about a balanced setup which refferenced to the number of fish kept to the number of plants, to the amount of direct sunlight received daily.... If these were in balance, you had a "closed circuit" culture going.... Maybe that was the first realisation about a cycled aquarium....????
 
I meant that its no more dangerous than the likes of bleach which is kept in millions of households which have kids. All that is required is some sensible chemical storage, as is required for most cleaning products when kids are around.
 
A month would be typical for a fishless cycle's length without any form of help. Under a week is adverage if you can get even a scrap of mature media... A couple of months is the longest I've known without help, and 2 weeks the shortest...

Nitrosomas and Nitrobacter are NOT the filter bacteria we are concered with, though aquarium litriture still bands these two species about as the true nitrifyers. Sligtly off-topic though, but Ludwig might be interested... Look up Timothy A Hovenec's research into filter bacteria, the only scientific research into filter bacteria carried out to date, and you will find that these two species don't do the biological filtering in a mature tank. These bacteria are dominant in souerage plants, where ammonia and nitrite is too high to allow an aquariums bacteria to thrive. There are 4 papers, one showing NitroSomas and NitroBacter are not present in significant numbers in an established aquarium, one showing that NitroSococcus is the AOB in Freshwater, another showing NitroSpira is the NOB in Freshwater and a final one showing the true AOB and NOB's in Marine, where you're surgestion of NitriSomas is correct for the AOB and another is the main one for NOB in marine...

The true nitrifyers are NitroSpira for NitrIte-NitrAte conversion and NitroSococcus for Ammonia-NitrIte conversion

All the best
Rabbut
 
Doresy!... I have learnt, & it is not difficult to deduct, that you are to the point, & express your views regardless of opinions... (& there are the few times that you have been discreet as well)...

Exclusively for this reason, I respect your views and I am pleased that you did respond to this question...., BUT, at the end of the day, a period of 6 month's cycling is prophetised by many... and also, I'd like to hear what you have to say about the "know your water stats" issue.... I can still be convinced....

(has anyone ever suggested to you to become a writer)... I like your style and choice of words (vocabulary)... Consider it.

:blush: :blush: :blush: :blush: :blush:

and also, I'd like to hear what you have to say about the "know your water stats" issue.... Ok, so do you get what I mean by saying that, I can strip a car engine down and rebuild it with my eyes shut (and with a hangover ;) ) and my wife doesn't even know what the engine does BUT she can still drive just as well as me?

Look at water test results for problems or just look at the fish and know your waters history, one works for some and the other works for the rest, simple :)

*edit* 6-8 weeks to complete a fishless cycle......6 months for it to mature (you know there's a difference)
 

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