Can I Use Water Out Of The Hot Tap?

[raptorrex]

you are joking of course there are very few bacteria that can survive the water temperatures in a hot water system? excepting those that live round the oceans thermal vents.

you can do as you wish, but there is on case to be made for using RO in a freshwater system, aside from a few fussy fish, especially in the UK. even that bit really close to France. i do however hope you have done the decent thing and have a water meter fitted, its a bit unfair to make others pay for your waste. (1 in 5 recovery rate).

No need to be quite so rude was there dear...

If you think extremophile bacteria are only found around mid ocean ridges, you're sorely mistaken
But that's not what's being suggested here, depending on your system, it's age and if it contains areas that might never get as hot as 60 degrees or only as hot as 50 degrees for a limited time, there is potential for bacterial growth. People are usually most concerned about Legionella, but who knows what else that would be more of a problem for our fish could be lurking there.
Maybe it's just an old wives tale, as I said you make your own choices or mistakes

What was really the necessity of the derogatory tone of the second paragraph there?
I'm not Jerseyborn so I couldnt give a monkeys if it's a "little bit near france" I wont be taken on some bizarre guilt trip about using RO.
I use it because Jersey has stunningly poor water quality and I buy it from a shop that already has a unit running for their Marine section.
Does that satisfy your attitude?

Lotte***

Legionella of the twenty or so cases, reported, of this over the last 30 years only one case was related to a water supply. and that was in Russia. there was one outbreak in the US connected to a fountain though.

lets say you are right and our hot water tanks are full of bacteria that will kill our fish, why don't my fish die? i have a boiler that fills a water tank, effectively the same as an immersion heater. and i am far from the only one that does it, no reports of mass deaths on the forum though. if these things do live in our water system, the most likely outcome is that we and our fish would become resistant, possibly even immune, to them by constant low level exposure. even then the water from my hot tap come out at 55- 60 degrees so it is academic anyway.

i have always and the same attitude to RO, it has not place, unless you really want to spend time and money putting back the things it has just taken out, in Freshwater fish keeping. as you state even your fish shop only uses it for their marine tanks. but the waste is enough to maintain this comment. there is nothing bizarre about feeling guilty for using RO. its massively wasteful, almost totally unnecessary, in freshwater, and potentially very dangerous.RO units do not deal well with bacterial/organic contaminants, but RO water is an ideal place from them to multiply and this can turn a batch of RO into a bacterial liquid poison. the funniest thing is, your water needs to be totally safe before you can use a RO system, if you believe the manufacturers instructions. i only mentioned Jersey so you knew i was aware of where you live and its water quality.

 

[Darkstar]

I use RO on freshwater systems and feel no guilt whatsoever.

 

[raptorrex]

I use RO on freshwater systems and feel no guilt whatsoever.

lol no guilt, but a water meter i hope .

 

[Darkstar]

Nope, no meter and wouldn't install one unless I absolutley had to.

 

[andywg]

I also heat the water up in winter and since I have been doing this, I have not had a single case of whitespot.

White spot is caused by one reason, and one reason only: Introducing it to the tank. It does not live in all water, nor is it present in all tanks. If you have whitespot and fully treat it (as in for 14 days or more) then you can put as much cold water in as you like and not get white spot as there will be none left in the tank to infect the fish.

Considering just how many people fill from the cold tap alone while just slinging some dechlor in and keep sensitive fish like rays I think your singular experience may potentially be down to something else (unless perhaps you hgad a proper analysis done of the corpses for a cause fo death?)

 

[Colin_T]

Different water corporations deal with water in different ways. The UK is somewhat colder than Australia and as such the risk of bacterial blooms in the drinking water is significantly lower. Therefore the amount of chlorine used there is potentially less compared to warmer climates.
Our water also spends a lot more time in the pipe work and there can be hundreds of kilometers betwen the dams and the buildings receiving the water.

There is more than one species of whitespot. Several new species of whitespot are smaller than the standard form and are potentially more lethal. Most species die without a host but some species remain dormant but viable for months, only becoming active when chemicals from live fish are found in the water.

 

[backtotropical]

Several new species of whitespot are smaller than the standard form and are potentially more lethal. Most species die without a host but some species remain dormant but viable for months, only becoming active when chemicals from live fish are found in the water.

Can you back this up, Colin?

I'm no expert in the parasite area of the hobby, but i'm pretty sure the Ich parasite doesn't have a dormant stage at all.

 

[raptorrex]

I'm no expert in the parasite area of the hobby, but i'm pretty sure the Ich parasite doesn't have a dormant stage at all.

i have to say that is how i see it too. though there are a few comments on it hiding in the substrate, there seems to be no evedence that it does. indeed all the scientific comment is that the parasite does not have a longterm dorment state.

 

[Colin_T]

You will have to talk to Fran and Paul at Fish Health. A government run fish and animal health lab located in Como, WA. Her team identified the new strains of whitespot from fish I took in to be biopsied.
The new whitespot are smaller than the standard form but bigger than velvet or oodinium.
At least one of the new strains of the marine whitespot remains dormant in the tank. This particular form kills within 24-48hours and has a 100% kill rate for fish unless treated with copper as soon as it is noticed. Even then it is often too late. It is harmless to inverts.
The tanks that have had this in have lost all the fish within two days of first appearing. The tanks were then left without fish for between one and two months before new fishes where introduced. The new fishes were quarantined for 2 weeks in a bare tank before going into the display tank.
Within 2 days of going into the display tank they developed whitespot and were dead two days later.
This has been done several times on several different tanks. In one of the test tanks we added 1 litre of tank water from a healthy fish tank, to the diseased tank. The diseased/ test tanks are 40litres. We did this each day for a week then left the tank for a month. Then we introduced some new fish that had been quarantined and they did not develop the whitespot and were still alive 1 year later.

 

[raptorrex]

You will have to talk to Fran and Paul at Fish Health. A government run fish and animal health lab located in Como, WA. Her team identified the new strains of whitespot from fish I took in to be biopsied.
The new whitespot are smaller than the standard form but bigger than velvet or oodinium.
At least one of the new strains of the marine whitespot remains dormant in the tank. This particular form kills within 24-48hours and has a 100% kill rate for fish unless treated with copper as soon as it is noticed. Even then it is often too late. It is harmless to inverts.
The tanks that have had this in have lost all the fish within two days of first appearing. The tanks were then left without fish for between one and two months before new fishes where introduced. The new fishes were quarantined for 2 weeks in a bare tank before going into the display tank.
Within 2 days of going into the display tank they developed whitespot and were dead two days later.
This has been done several times on several different tanks. In one of the test tanks we added 1 litre of tank water from a healthy fish tank, to the diseased tank. The diseased/ test tanks are 40litres. We did this each day for a week then left the tank for a month. Then we introduced some new fish that had been quarantined and they did not develop the whitespot and were still alive 1 year later.

do you have a link or a document reference on this? i assume it was officially reported somewhere.

 

[Colin_T]

I have no idea if it was reported officially. I just took some fish in to the fish health labs and they tested them before telling me the results. I saw the whitespot parasites under a microscope tho. The guy doing the biopsy on the first fish was calling everyone over to look at them. Then they dragged out a slide with the standard form of whitespot and put them next to each other to compare the size difference.
The tests done on the marine tanks were done by myself and an ex co-worker. I have heard about similar whitespot problems from other people working in the pet industry. The main one is the marine variety that covers fish in whitespot and wipes them out within a few days. It is becoming more common on fishes imported from Asia.

 

[waterdrop]

<...>
I use a plastic rubbish bin and put a spare aquarium heater in it. Add your dechlorinator and an airstone and leave it overnight. The next day it is the correct temperature and the chlorine has come out and it is safe to use.

The whole topic of the water that goes back in is one that will probably be debated forever and I'm certainly too new to have anything to add, however...

I do have a side topic re Colin's comment above. If there is anyone out there who for whatever reason wants to source their water like Colin is describing, I can add that I was given a similar description by a person with a back problem -- she simply rigged up a powerhead to a couple of tubes to do water transfers in and out of the tank to a clean, new large plastic garbage can on wheels, the type which can be obtained in the big-box stores. ..just thinking her idea combined with Colin's might help somebody with their own similar ideas.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[geo7x]

I think many people underestimate the power of chlorine and cold water on causing fish to get sick.

Bearing in mind that temperature drops significantly on numerous occassions, particularly overnight and after it has rained, in their natural habitat. Also referring back to what andy said, if people with fish like stingrays use cold water in their water changes then I think the rest of us can have our minds put to rest. Cold water is a spawning trigger for many fish, they're not going to keel over as a result of it.

I added dechlorinater during and after the top up. I even double dosed the tanks.

I'm assuming you have an Australian equivalent to some of the dechlorinator brands we have in the UK? Or the same? Either way if this is the case then surely there would be many complaints to the dechlorinator company and something would be done about the strength of the dechlorinator. I'm no expert on water treatment but I can't see how the amount of chlorine would increase that much, seeing as I know of many people who have experimentally not used dechlorinator at all and have just put untreated tap water straight in to the tank and had no ill effects, in fact, the experiment was carried out by numerous members at one time and there was no negative feedback.

But that's another issue and whilst I certainly do not recommend the use of untreated tap water, if fish apparently aren't affected by that amount of chlorine even in the long run, then your water must have a hell of a lot of chlorine in it to be immediately fatal even after a double dose of dechlorinator, which is worrying seeing as this is, again, drinking water.


If you're assuming that this 'new whitespot' was on your fish as a direct result of the water change, then how does that have any relevance to the fact that from the investigation you appear to have discovered that the quarantined fish all died with a couple of days of being introduced, and only as a result of being in an apparently infected tank, not due to any external stresses? Therefore there is no connection between doing a cold water and the fish getting "new whitespot".
What are these chemicals from live fish? Unless these chemicals only come about when fish are exposed to chlorine and cold water I, again, fail to see the relevance.

In a nutshell I can't see the connection between cold water changes, chlorine and whitespot, and I also join the group of people who want to see more information on this 'new whitespot'. For such a revolutionary discovery there doesn't seem to be much information on it. You have described the investigation vaguely but even for that there are no reports.

As a final note (honestly) this is not the first time you have used this method of leaving the bucket overnight as a suggestion to people asking about this topic. It seems you are the only person experiencing this extraordinary case (if you are at all), and bearing in mind the thread starter lives in Scotland it is certainly not necessary to suggest it.

 

[Colin_T]

The main reason I suggest leaving the water overnight was so a spare aquarium heater could be used to warm the water because that was one of the original concerns. The other point being that hot water and even cold water from water pipes is under pressure and usually has lower dissolved gases in it compared to water exposed to the atmosphere. By aerating it in a bucket overnight you get the dissolved gases back to an equilibrium where they should be. (see backtotropical's statement).

Cold tap water can be 5 degrees C or less in winter. If you do a 50% water change with that water on a tropical tank that is 26C, there is going to be a considerable drop in tank temperature. Even if you only do a 25% water change the tank’s temp will drop to about 20C and this will cause stress to the inhabitants.

Fish out in the wild are in huge volumes of water so the only time the temperature fluctuates massively is when there is considerable rain. And when there is considerable rainfall there is also fish losses due to the sudden influx of cooler water. The stronger fish survive the change in water but the weaker ones do not. Temperate/ coldwater species are less likely to be affected than tropical species because they have evloved to tolerate these conditions.
A small amount of rain isn't going to drop the temperature of a river but a continuous lengthy downpour will increase the rivers volume and have an effect on temperature. Likewise a pond isn't going to change temperature that rapidly due to the sheer volume of water.
Water holds temperature much more effectively than air, and ponds and rivers are surrounded by soil which helps retain heat. The only part of a pond or river that is exposed to the air is the surface and this is not going to allow for rapid temperature changes overnight.
It’s like an esky of water without a lid. The water is going to stay at a more even temperature because it is insulted on all sides except the top. A glass aquarium is open to the elements on all sides except the bottom, and top if coverglass are used. This leaves all the sides exposed and the temperature is affected more rapidly. A fish tank also holds significantly less water than a pond or river.
In the tropics the water is already warm and the surrounding soil and rocks are warm. This helps to create a heat reserve for when it does rain.
Aquarium temperatures fluctuate significantly and a few rivers do as well, but most natural water bodies only suffer minor fluctuations.

We have enough chlorine in the water to be able to smell it when the tap is turned on. Hence the reason many people filter their water before drinking it. They and I don't trust the government in that regards.

The connection between the water changes and whitespot was that some new strains of whitespot do not die without a host but can remain viable in a tank for months. The water changes with cold water cause stress and can bring on whitespot if it is still in the tank.

If you want reports on fish diseases, contact the Fish Health labs in Baron Hay Court, Como, Western Australia. Look em up. They're in the Department of Agriculture.

As for there not being much information about such a revolutionary discovery, there isn’t much info about lots of things related to fish diseases. Fish Diseases are not high on the government’s agenda. Human diseases are but fish diseases aren’t.
You never read about the new drug resistant strains of parasites, bacteria & fungus coming out of Asia. You don’t read about how widely distributed fish Tuberculosis (Mycobacteria) is. You don’t read about Trichlorphon, Masoten or Dipterex (it’s the same drug) being useless to treat external parasites and that it is toxic and causes cancer. Yet it is still used as a basic parasite treatment. And it doesn’t work any more either due to the excessive use and misuse of it in Asia where most aquarium fishes come from. You don’t read about Malachite Green causing cancer and that is still widely used in aquarium medications. You don’t read about formaldehyde (formalin) that is in most liquid fish medications. You don’t read about the side effects of the chemicals used for water testing. They are all toxic and should not be allowed to come in contact with your skin or any other part of the body. And they should be disposed of in a safe manor, not just poured down the drain.
You don’t read about how many species of fish are becoming or have already become extinct in the wild due to pollution, habitat destruction and over fishing. Sometimes you do (the Galaxy Rasbora & Bangaii Cardinalfish) but in general if the fish isn’t new and pretty coloured, it doesn’t get reported.
Lots of things don’t get reported, especially if it has long term health implications. There are heaps of things that are known about but not everything gets published in a fish magazine.

If people want to reduce stress on their fishes, then they should only use water that is clean and free of chlorine and heavy metals. Use water that has a similar temperature, PH & general hardness to the water the fishes are currently living in.
The only way to guarantee the water is like this is to make it up before you add it to the tank. If you aren’t too fussed about that then do water changes however you like.

 

[Osian]

I would have thought that where in Scotland he lives has an impact, if he lives quite far north then the water quality would naturaly be fairly good and the water company wouldnt need to add to much, just the bear amount to make safe, as they dont want to waste money on chemicals and treatment. Also if he lives quite far out and the pipes run a fair distance under ground the water temp will be 10-11 DegC as thats what the gound temp in the uk is mostly. My water comes out at 11 Deg C and my tank is at 26 deg C so i do heat the water up. If you live in an a town or City then perhaps the water doesnt travel so far and comes in at a higher temp.
I dont know as i havent worked it out but I would imagin that a water change of 25% at 11 deg C on a tank at 26 Deg C would drop the water to around 22 DegC, and on a 50% water change would drop it to 19 DegC?

Also i'm sure i read somwhere there are 3 strains of whitespot (Ichthyophthirius multifiliis) G1 G1.1 and G2? but i'm not sure as i didnt really give the article much time as i only wanted to know how to treat it and how it looked. Was my first outbreak.