Can I Use Water Out Of The Hot Tap?

[andywg]

As for there not being much information about such a revolutionary discovery, there isn’t much info about lots of things related to fish diseases. Fish Diseases are not high on the government’s agenda. Human diseases are but fish diseases aren’t.

Might I recommend you read the Skeptical aquarist site regarding dormant ich. Dr Peter Burgess got his Ph.D by studying FW Ich, and he says there is no evidence of there being a dormant stage in FW ich. There is a dormant stage in SW ich, the scientific name for SW ich refers to it being dormant. This is the most likely reason for people assuming that a FW parasite with the same common name has similar properties, though they have never been evidenced.

Bignose regularly reviews the sceintific literature on points and I am sure he has looked for journals regarding dormant FW ich (so no government influence there, just science). No journals or papers report a dormant stage of FW ich. If you kill the infection fully, it will not come back, no matter how much cold water you put in the tank.

While I would agree that 50% is a bit large for cold water changes; a tank at 24 degrees will drop by a theoretical maximum of 3.4 degrees when changing 20% using 7 degree cold water (the coldest that the mains reaches in the middle of Scottish winters according to published information). In reality, with ambient heat and such you will not see more than 2 degrees, a drop which all fish can take.

Fish out in the wild are in huge volumes of water so the only time the temperature fluctuates massively is when there is considerable rain.

Large bodies of water have thermoclines where any diver knows that water temperature changes sharply. Many fish hunt form one are of thermocline to another and in tropical reefs butterflyfish are often seen swimming from warm lagoon water to an incoming cooler ocean flood at high tide without any issues. There the difference in temperature is so great as to create "shimmers" in the water.

I think far too many people consider fish as being unable to deal with temeprature changes and do their millions of years of evolution a disservice.

 

[CageUK]

Large bodies of water have thermoclines where any diver knows that water temperature changes sharply. Many fish hunt form one are of thermocline to another and in tropical reefs butterflyfish are often seen swimming from warm lagoon water to an incoming cooler ocean flood at high tide without any issues. There the difference in temperature is so great as to create "shimmers" in the water.

I think far too many people consider fish as being unable to deal with temeprature changes and do their millions of years of evolution a disservice.

This is true. I've often snorkelled in the Med and swam through 'cold spots' which were enough to give me goosebumps but it didn't seem to bother the fish that I was following. Presumably the same can be said for freshwater fish.

Some fish in fact use cold water (after heavy rains for instance) as a stimulus to start the mating process. So while they are aware of temp changes, I agree that it's not as much of an issue as we tend to think!

 

[raptorrex]

Large bodies of water have thermoclines where any diver knows that water temperature changes sharply. Many fish hunt form one are of thermocline to another and in tropical reefs butterflyfish are often seen swimming from warm lagoon water to an incoming cooler ocean flood at high tide without any issues. There the difference in temperature is so great as to create "shimmers" in the water.

I think far too many people consider fish as being unable to deal with temeprature changes and do their millions of years of evolution a disservice.

This is true. I've often snorkelled in the Med and swam through 'cold spots' which were enough to give me goosebumps but it didn't seem to bother the fish that I was following. Presumably the same can be said for freshwater fish.

Some fish in fact use cold water (after heavy rains for instance) as a stimulus to start the mating process. So while they are aware of temp changes, I agree that it's not as much of an issue as we tend to think!

any research will prove the validity of andys comments on ICK. ICK is not endemic in Australia as it is in most of the northern hemisphere. it is well documented when it does occur, though there are some areas where it does occur, in nature. predominately cause by the introduction of European Trout in the 1930's i think. a new form of ICK discovered in OZ would cause a storm, not remain unreported, officially. honestly can you imagine a fresh branch of the ICK family being found, and nobody, with the exception of one, knowing about it?

its not just fish that use, drastic, reductions in temperature, in a tropical/subtropical environment, to control their breeding cycle. Crayfish do the same. breeding is often prompted by large reductions in water temperature, cause by the early season rains, as the water warms the cray moult and then mate. it is used throughout the aquaculture of Crayfish. though there is often a drop in PH associated with this, which it seems, may cause the moulting.

it has often confused me as to why people seem intent on giving their fish a constant unchanging environment. it is often claimed to be "keeping it natural". which is odd, as a natural environment is constantly changing. all the enviromental parameters see-saw continually.

 

[geo7x]

Cold tap water can be 5 degrees C or less in winter. If you do a 50% water change with that water on a tropical tank that is 26C, there is going to be a considerable drop in tank temperature. Even if you only do a 25% water change the tank’s temp will drop to about 20C and this will cause stress to the inhabitants.

But will it? I have never heard of such a 'stress' being caused by a cold water change, and you have provided no proof that this is the case. Breeding behaviour immediately after cold water changes is a good sign that the cold water change did anything but stress the fish out. Water temperatures in the wild can fluctuate right down at night, and do you think that fish are going to stay still in one area of river? The difference between the temperature at different depths and areas of river can be quite astonishing.

And when there is considerable rainfall there is also fish losses due to the sudden influx of cooler water. The stronger fish survive the change in water but the weaker ones do not. Temperate/ coldwater species are less likely to be affected than tropical species because they have evloved to tolerate these conditions.

Do you really think that even after millions of years of evolution fish die due to a totally natural and frequent process? Considering much of their habitat is rainforest rivers I can only assume that heavy rain and sudden influxes of cooler water are quite a common occurance and I'm sure fish have evolved to not die from it by now.

Fish out in the wild are in huge volumes of water so the only time the temperature fluctuates massively is when there is considerable rain. And when there is considerable rainfall there is also fish losses due to the sudden influx of cooler water. The stronger fish survive the change in water but the weaker ones do not. Temperate/ coldwater species are less likely to be affected than tropical species because they have evloved to tolerate these conditions.
A small amount of rain isn't going to drop the temperature of a river but a continuous lengthy downpour will increase the rivers volume and have an effect on temperature. Likewise a pond isn't going to change temperature that rapidly due to the sheer volume of water.
Water holds temperature much more effectively than air, and ponds and rivers are surrounded by soil which helps retain heat. The only part of a pond or river that is exposed to the air is the surface and this is not going to allow for rapid temperature changes overnight.
It’s like an esky of water without a lid. The water is going to stay at a more even temperature because it is insulted on all sides except the top.

This is what aquarium heaters are for. If tanks had great warm banks surrounding them then there would be no need for heaters.

A glass aquarium is open to the elements on all sides except the bottom, and top if coverglass are used. This leaves all the sides exposed and the temperature is affected more rapidly. A fish tank also holds significantly less water than a pond or river.
In the tropics the water is already warm and the surrounding soil and rocks are warm. This helps to create a heat reserve for when it does rain.

What "elements" are in your house? Unless you have icey winds, sleet and snow in your house then your tank isn't exposed to anything that's going to affect the temperature of the tanks.

The connection between the water changes and whitespot was that some new strains of whitespot do not die without a host but can remain viable in a tank for months. The water changes with cold water cause stress and can bring on whitespot if it is still in the tank.

But from your investigation and from what you said this new strain of whitespot killed the fish introduced to the infected tank almost immediately, cold water changes had nothing to do with it.

However I am still sceptical of this apparent new strain. I don't want to seem rude, but considering the lack of information on this vs the large amount of reports specifically saying that ich doesn't have a dormant stage I think my point of view is understandable.

If you want reports on fish diseases, contact the Fish Health labs in Baron Hay Court, Como, Western Australia. Look em up. They're in the Department of Agriculture.

As for there not being much information about such a revolutionary discovery, there isn’t much info about lots of things related to fish diseases. Fish Diseases are not high on the government’s agenda.

Contradiction? If there isn't any info on this new strain then these labs aren't going to tell us anything.

It doesn't matter about the government, as andy said there are reports out there that are totally seperate from the government, and considering how much of a big business importing, distributing and selling tropical fish before they even hit the home aquarium is I would be surprised if such a quick killer would go undetected.

There is no hard evidence proving any of your claims, Colin_T, even your experience of fish deaths after a water change was a one-off occurance with no proof that chlorine or cold water had anything to do with it, and I have never heard of such a thing happening before. Even in this situation cold water had nothing to do with the deaths you had, you only decided to do that as a precaution. I have never heard of any situation like this, and it seems that it is the most experienced members on here, especially people with expensive, relatively sensitive fish (e.g. rays, and mainly other large preds) that do cold water changes and they know what they are doing! No one else has ever heard of this new whitespot, there are no reports on it and there are only reports directly contradicting it.

People are wasting their time by worrying about their tank temperature too much, temperature fluctuations are one of the many things fish have evolved to deal with, we don't need to make such a fuss about it.

 

[Osian]

Well just another thought, Does cold water changed shorten the life of the fish? It's a common fact that captive animals live longer than wild. Mostly down to lack of preditors, stable food and health care. So would a fish that noarmaly lives for 2 years say with cold water changes live for 18 - 20 months, while one that doesnt go though the fluctuations lives for 22-25 months?

Just because fish in the wild live with it every day doesnt mean it doesnt take it's toll on them in later years, just like stress and seriously hard work will take it's toll on people in later years. I guess the only way to know would be have a tank with a lot of small fish who have cold water changes only and a tank with the smal type of fish having the water warmed up and see the average life over all of them. But i do agree while the fish is fairly young say somthing like up to 60 yr old in Human terms it might not bother or effect them much, but when they get older, just like older people, the rapid change in temperature can take it's toll.

 

[CFC]

Anyone got fifty 10 gallon buckets they can lend me so i can do my water changes properly, i must have been changing the water in my 2000 gallons of aquariums wrong for all this time

 

[Piltdownpaul]

My hot water comes from my copper tank. I mix with fresh cold water to get a temperature of water which is colder than the aquarium but not really cold. Sometimes i use dechlorinator and sometimes not-and i do this in my breeding tanks and havent lost one fish yet. I believe its not really a problem to get hung up about-come summertime i'll be adding only cold water and it invigorates the fish i reckon!!

 

[OscarWilde]

Anyone got fifty 10 gallon buckets they can lend me so i can do my water changes properly, i must have been changing the water in my 2000 gallons of aquariums wrong for all this time

Personally I use this highly scientific method.

1. Stick my finger in the tank and 'feel' the temp.
2. Get my big water container under the tap in the bath.
3. Add fill it with a mix of water from the cold and hot tap.
4. Wait til it over flows and stick my finger in again.
5. Add more hot or cold as required
6. Pour it in the tank.

I've been keeping for many years and have NEVER EVER had fish with infections (and yes I do know the symptoms). I don't hear the fish complaining either, in fact they seem happier than ever when I change the water (1/3 weekly).

I think this is another case in fishkeeping where people worry too much. Fish (at least most fish) are so much tougher than they are given credit for.

 

[raptorrex]

People are wasting their time by worrying about their tank temperature too much, temperature fluctuations are one of the many things fish have evolved to deal with, we don't need to make such a fuss about it.

says it all really!!!