I'm over the insultsHow bout you two take a time out and peruse the other threads on the forum.
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Bad advice in the "Betta Care" thread...
- Thread starter Rocky998
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Betta have been controversial for decades and for very good reasons
They have been bred and overbred and genetically mutilated to within an inch of their lives....and for what?
Money.
They are natural born fighters....if you visit Thailand, Laos, Vietnam, China....you will see them hanging in tiny plastic bags by the thousand. All for sale to the highest bidder, all have pedigrees that put most prize winning dogs to shame. They are fought and the winners go on to stud, bloodlines in Asia are extremely valuable in the fighting circle.
They will kill if the conditions are right and if they run out of tolerance of other fish in their territory. I have personally watched Thai Betta fights and it truly is not a pretty sight to see these magnificent fish rip each other apart. They are fought in containers no bigger than the cups you find them being sold in at pet stores......two male or two female Betta, no space to escape each other, they grab and bit and chew each others finnage, they barge each other, headbutt each other...a fight can last 30 minutes or more...sometimes one might live, sometimes neither live
They are not a community type species, they have a very specific body language that an owner should learn and be aware of.
As with most of the worlds most beautiful creatures, they have a dark side that should not be ignored.
The trade in these fish has been and still is inhumane, the way they are genetically modified and often injected with dye to make them more saleable and to make the breeder more money.
When those of us first encountered the Betta 40-50 years ago they were either blue or red, plain, moderately finned exotic in their own right. Their lifespan was good, they were not prone to illness and when they did catch anything it was easily treated with plain old water.
That has changed. The fish are packaged for international transport in tiny bags loaded to the gills with every antibiotic imaginable. There is a series on TV that follows the work of border control agents in Australia, more than once they intercepted illegal import of Betta, fish in a couple inches of bright cobalt blue water that when the bag opened smelt like a chemical puddle, the fish barely alive, ragged and sick....euthanised to put them out of their misery.
People can complain about the way Betta are mistreated all they want...but at the end of the day unless people stop buying them, the market will always be there for those breeders to treat their fish more and more inhumanely.
I would rather buy a plain blue or red and have it live alone in a healthy environment that chance the potential of it attacking another fish or being attacked by another Betta. This is MY choice based on my own experience with these fish and seeing exactly what they are capable of doing to one another and to other fish.
My experience may fly against what others think or have experienced, that's fine, I can live with that.
I respect the opinions of others about Betta...even when I absolutely disagree with them, but I will always feel sorry for the fish if they share an aquarium with a Betta and I will always advise against a Betta in a community aquarium cos that is MY experience and all experiences should be respected even if eventually they are ignored.
They have been bred and overbred and genetically mutilated to within an inch of their lives....and for what?
Money.
They are natural born fighters....if you visit Thailand, Laos, Vietnam, China....you will see them hanging in tiny plastic bags by the thousand. All for sale to the highest bidder, all have pedigrees that put most prize winning dogs to shame. They are fought and the winners go on to stud, bloodlines in Asia are extremely valuable in the fighting circle.
They will kill if the conditions are right and if they run out of tolerance of other fish in their territory. I have personally watched Thai Betta fights and it truly is not a pretty sight to see these magnificent fish rip each other apart. They are fought in containers no bigger than the cups you find them being sold in at pet stores......two male or two female Betta, no space to escape each other, they grab and bit and chew each others finnage, they barge each other, headbutt each other...a fight can last 30 minutes or more...sometimes one might live, sometimes neither live
They are not a community type species, they have a very specific body language that an owner should learn and be aware of.
As with most of the worlds most beautiful creatures, they have a dark side that should not be ignored.
The trade in these fish has been and still is inhumane, the way they are genetically modified and often injected with dye to make them more saleable and to make the breeder more money.
When those of us first encountered the Betta 40-50 years ago they were either blue or red, plain, moderately finned exotic in their own right. Their lifespan was good, they were not prone to illness and when they did catch anything it was easily treated with plain old water.
That has changed. The fish are packaged for international transport in tiny bags loaded to the gills with every antibiotic imaginable. There is a series on TV that follows the work of border control agents in Australia, more than once they intercepted illegal import of Betta, fish in a couple inches of bright cobalt blue water that when the bag opened smelt like a chemical puddle, the fish barely alive, ragged and sick....euthanised to put them out of their misery.
People can complain about the way Betta are mistreated all they want...but at the end of the day unless people stop buying them, the market will always be there for those breeders to treat their fish more and more inhumanely.
I would rather buy a plain blue or red and have it live alone in a healthy environment that chance the potential of it attacking another fish or being attacked by another Betta. This is MY choice based on my own experience with these fish and seeing exactly what they are capable of doing to one another and to other fish.
My experience may fly against what others think or have experienced, that's fine, I can live with that.
I respect the opinions of others about Betta...even when I absolutely disagree with them, but I will always feel sorry for the fish if they share an aquarium with a Betta and I will always advise against a Betta in a community aquarium cos that is MY experience and all experiences should be respected even if eventually they are ignored.
When debating betta we might assume we are all referring to the same species, but there are many species within the betta genus, as well as many that are undescribed or hybrids.
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Bigfishcity007
New Member
The fish would be way too stressed and potentially die, it just wants to survive.
Generally, when people say "Betta", they refer to splendens.
When it comes to fighting, I think we have the same problem as we have with pit bulls, on a less complex level. The dogs were bred to fight, and fighting is still an underground thing in some places, and less so in others. Some pitties are aggressive. I walk my old dog in the woods, and every single dog on dog attack I have seen there involved a pit bull as the attacker, and as the dog drawing blood. People will tell me what I've seen isn't real, that's it's not true and it's nature and nurture, but I suspect in those cases both nurture and nature were issues. With Bettas, it's pure nature. Not all bettas are fighters. But they are not misunderstood, and they have capacities chosen by humans in the past.
I think with some Bettas, two could live in a 200 ltr tank. Upon meeting, there would be fin shredding, but if the set up was right, they might maybe could conceivably have different territories and ignore each other. Or it could be carnage. It isn't worth trying, if you are new to Bettas and dream of a splendens community. Unless you lucked into very mild individuals, it would be cruel. I have seen it work with plakats, in a huge, very carefully designed tank run by a skilled aquarist.
Humans are skilled manipulators of genetics, and splendens has been worked on. What I saw with my wilds from Laos is seeing a different fish from a Thai fighter or a show splendens. It's like comparing a genial mixed dog with a French bulldog or a pit bull. The potentials are different. The breeding may give you a far more aggressive animal than nature would have. When I watch the instincts come to the front with my old rescue retriever (or to really stir the pot, when I watched our instincts when I taught teenagers), I see how strong these elements inside us and other animals are.
So where are we in practical terms? Nowhere we need to fight about, no matter how some posters phrase their contributions. Some "Bettas" are more aggressive keyboar warriors than others. We need to put our fins down, and at times, sit in our territories and ignore the guy next plant over. He may have a point, but we may have a different philosophy.
When it comes to fighting, I think we have the same problem as we have with pit bulls, on a less complex level. The dogs were bred to fight, and fighting is still an underground thing in some places, and less so in others. Some pitties are aggressive. I walk my old dog in the woods, and every single dog on dog attack I have seen there involved a pit bull as the attacker, and as the dog drawing blood. People will tell me what I've seen isn't real, that's it's not true and it's nature and nurture, but I suspect in those cases both nurture and nature were issues. With Bettas, it's pure nature. Not all bettas are fighters. But they are not misunderstood, and they have capacities chosen by humans in the past.
I think with some Bettas, two could live in a 200 ltr tank. Upon meeting, there would be fin shredding, but if the set up was right, they might maybe could conceivably have different territories and ignore each other. Or it could be carnage. It isn't worth trying, if you are new to Bettas and dream of a splendens community. Unless you lucked into very mild individuals, it would be cruel. I have seen it work with plakats, in a huge, very carefully designed tank run by a skilled aquarist.
Humans are skilled manipulators of genetics, and splendens has been worked on. What I saw with my wilds from Laos is seeing a different fish from a Thai fighter or a show splendens. It's like comparing a genial mixed dog with a French bulldog or a pit bull. The potentials are different. The breeding may give you a far more aggressive animal than nature would have. When I watch the instincts come to the front with my old rescue retriever (or to really stir the pot, when I watched our instincts when I taught teenagers), I see how strong these elements inside us and other animals are.
So where are we in practical terms? Nowhere we need to fight about, no matter how some posters phrase their contributions. Some "Bettas" are more aggressive keyboar warriors than others. We need to put our fins down, and at times, sit in our territories and ignore the guy next plant over. He may have a point, but we may have a different philosophy.
Completely agree here. I made a real essay reply all about pitbulls and the nature/nurture debate, since it gets heated with neither side willing to face reality and understand each other. And as with most nature or nurture debates, it's almost always a mixture of both.
We've selectively bred dogs for centuries to do certain tasks for us. No one is surprised when a greyhound loves to run and chase small fluffies, or a Border Collie has a natural tendency to herd, which is then built on and improved by the shepherds training. Pointers naturally go into a point when they spot a bird, retrievers usually retrieve well and love water, etc etc! The list goes on and on.
While of course each dog is an individual, and not all are cut out for the work they were bred for, or have come from pet only lines and changed the breed somewhat, there's no heated debate about how other breeds have breed tendencies as a result of their genetics. That potential owners need to be aware of and decide whether it's the breed for them, and if they can handle a dog like that. A little old granny living in a flat doesn't need to be getting a livestock guardian dog, you know? Pitbulls are not some special exception where they're a blank slate, shaped only by environment. There is so clearly a difference between a pitty and a Goldie in their basic nature, and denying it seems like flat earth believing, frankly. Wanting to believe against all evidence and reason.
I'm sure that with careful breeding by passionate breeders who wanted to save the breed, that the aggressive tendencies could be reduced by a great deal. The pitties strength, determination, high prey drive (gameness, in dog fighting terms) makes them a very high risk to other dogs, and sadly, too often to people as well. But most pitties in shelters come from backyard breeders. Idiots breeding for size/colour/profitability, not temperament. While the dog fighters continue to breed their most aggressive and game dogs, with their stock often going into shelters and then pet homes when the ring is raided and the dogs rescued.
The question would be who will change the breeding plan for these dogs, and breeding out all of those breed tendencies would also change the shape and nature of the breed entirely. It would no longer really be a pit bull. I don't see the pit bull advocates going for that. So I'll keep steering clear of them when I'm out with my own dogs, since one of mine was almost killed by a staffy. I never want to go through that again.
By ‘pit bull’ are we meaning an actual American pit bull terrier? Or are we just clumping the whole bully breed into the term pit bull because we are scared of them cause of the bad press they receive for looking scary?
I also keep my betta with harlequin rasbora and a bristlenose. (It’s a 29 gallon tank) not one single issue. I wouldn’t put another betta in there, but I am also of the mindset that very few animals live a solely solitary life. So, slapping some fish in a tank all by itself seems cruel to me.
I also keep my betta with harlequin rasbora and a bristlenose. (It’s a 29 gallon tank) not one single issue. I wouldn’t put another betta in there, but I am also of the mindset that very few animals live a solely solitary life. So, slapping some fish in a tank all by itself seems cruel to me.
The dog aggression isn't bred in thru reputable breeders. The only ones with ‘fighting dog’ lines are those that are raised terribly and forced to fight. It’s not a trait. The breeders would continue to breed the ‘winners’ of the fight, presumably the more aggressive dog. And that’s where the ‘bred to fight’ comes from.
Bully breeds are notoriously loyal, and because of that were traditionally used as a ‘nanny dog’
I have owned, and will own a bully breed again. So my experience is based on what I’ve witnessed firsthand.
Bully breeds are notoriously loyal, and because of that were traditionally used as a ‘nanny dog’
I have owned, and will own a bully breed again. So my experience is based on what I’ve witnessed firsthand.
OP
OP
I believe that there is no such thing as a bad dog... Whatever aggression it shows towards people is most likely caused by people
Definitely. If a dog is treated right then it will act right
OP
OP
Have you ever read the book White Fang? Really good book on dog aggression and the bonding of a human with a mis-treated dog
Yes, i have! It's a good book
OP
OP
I like the book better the movie... The book is a little hard to follow at SOME parts, but it goes into more depth than the movie. Although I do like some parts of the movie, its not bad or anything
I watched the movie as well. Its decent but they kinda changed the storyline from what I remember.
OP
OP
Two conversations at the same time with the same person is kinda funny
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