Bad advice in the "Betta Care" thread...

[Rocky998]

If you read my post correctly, my suggestion was a 200-liter tank for two fish, hardly what you would call a confined space considering the fish are only around two inches long.

But I also remember you stating that the "winner" would feel so good that he "won" the fight.

 

[itiwhetu]

But I also remember you stating that the "winner" would feel so good that he "won" the fight.

wouldn't he?

 

[Rocky998]

wouldn't he?

One word: "No"

 

[itiwhetu]

One word: "No"

Get off your PC moral high ground for one moment and think. You have a fish genetically wired to fight; you are going to tell me that fish is going to be happier in a tiny tank by its self-watching TV rather than being in a huge tank with a sparring partner. Take the human out of it, think like a fish.

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

Now now there... Settle down... We dont need anyone getting angry

Eh, I'm not responsible for anyone else's feelings! And I believe in calling a spade a spade, and being straight talking. Passive aggressive sniping and trying to take out his temper and resentment on others is pretty toxic.


How he chooses to behave and how he responds to people being honest is on him. And that goes for all of us. We're all responsible for our actions and our emotional control. All part of being an adult.

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

wouldn't he?

Stupid question.

Get off your PC moral high ground for one moment and think. You have a fish genetically wired to fight; you are going to tell me that fish is going to be happier in a tiny tank by its self-watching TV rather than being in a huge tank with a sparring partner. Take the human out of it, think like a fish.

Setting fish up to fight in an un-natural situation, knowing that one or both will die, and pretty horribly, is a good thing? And people who object to deliberately buying fish in order to watch them destroy each other in a gory fight to the death, are "on a PC moral high ground"?

Seriously - are you drunk or under the influence of something?

 

[itiwhetu]

Stupid question.


Setting fish up to fight in an un-natural situation, knowing that one or both will die, and pretty horribly, is a good thing? And people who object to deliberately buying fish in order to watch them destroy each other in a gory fight to the death, are "on a PC moral high ground"?

Seriously - are you drunk or under the influence of something?

The fish won't kill themselves. If you have ever bred Bettas, you would know that you can have dozens of male fish in one tank flaring at each other, without ever having a death. How do you think people breed these fish? They then put them in tiny containers to protect their beautiful fins.
I am going to completely ignore your last comment, I just hope the mods don't.

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

The fish won't kill themselves. If you have ever bred Bettas, you would know that you can have dozens of male fish in one tank flaring at each other, without ever having a death. How do you think people breed these fish? They then put them in tiny containers to protect their beautiful fins.
I am going to completely ignore your last comment, I just hope the mods don't.

Those fish that a breeder keeps together are siblings that have been raised together. Just like in the wild, they all live together in the same area as they mature without fighting, of course!

But as they grow and reach maturity, they leave that area and find their own territories. The males find and hold a territory, the females move and travel around, finding a suitable male, mating, then he chases her away again and guards the eggs.


YOU were talking about two adult, mature bettas that were NOT raised together, they will almost certainly fight.

While some have been selectively bred to be more aggressive, they don't WANT to and ENJOY fighting. They are TERRITORIAL. That's a different thing.

If you've kept, bred and sold thousands of fish, including bettas, you should know this already.

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

Seriously - are you drunk or under the influence of something?

I am going to completely ignore your last comment, I just hope the mods don't.

When someone who claims expertise in fish keeping advises that a species of fish not just enjoys, but NEEDS to fight, and that we should set up death matches for them, then yeah, it's reasonable to ask if your thinking is affected in some way.

 

[itiwhetu]

When someone who claims expertise in fish keeping advises that a species of fish not just enjoys, but NEEDS to fight, and that we should set up death matches for them, then yeah, it's reasonable to ask if your thinking is affected in some way.

I have never claimed to be an expert, far from it. I only know what I know.
You have managed to sidestep how wonderfully happy your Betta is watching TV with not another fish in sight.

 

[itiwhetu]

Just fundamentally in the animal kingdom don't animals need interaction with other animals? So, keeping a Betta in a ten gallon on its own without any interaction with other fish must be cruel and against the animals' rights.

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

I have never claimed to be an expert, far from it. I only know what I know.
You have managed to sidestep how wonderfully happy your Betta is watching TV with not another fish in sight.

I don't have bettas, lol

But I do agree with trying to replicate a fishes natural environment. Solitary fish not forced to live together and fight, social fish in decent number schools.

If you believe differently, please share how successful you have been with keeping unrelated adult male bettas together, because you think they enjoy and need to fight to be happy. That was your original claim, remember?

 

[itiwhetu]

I don't have bettas, lol

But I do agree with trying to replicate a fishes natural environment. Solitary fish not forced to live together and fight, social fish in decent number schools.

If you believe differently, please share how successful you have been with keeping unrelated adult male bettas together, because you think they enjoy and need to fight to be happy. That was your original claim, remember?

I used to import about 250 Bettas at a time. We had a fighter hotel. ( Three hundred separate cells about two liters each in capacity but linked as one tank, with the water running through each cell and into a bio filter sump.) Those fish every night would jump from one cell to another, but never killed each other a bit of flaring a couple of snaps. The naughty ones would then be moved with cells between them and the next fish. Things would settle down. We had very few deaths. The most deaths we had were those jumping out and missing the next-door cell or the sump and then landing on the floor.

 

[itiwhetu]

I don't have bettas, lol

But I do agree with trying to replicate a fishes natural environment. Solitary fish not forced to live together and fight, social fish in decent number schools.

If you believe differently, please share how successful you have been with keeping unrelated adult male bettas together, because you think they enjoy and need to fight to be happy. That was your original claim, remember?

You are very opinionated for someone who doesn't keep the fish in question. Just another google expert.

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

I used to import about 250 Bettas at a time. We had a fighter hotel. ( Three hundred separate cells about two liters each in capacity but linked as one tank, with the water running through each cell and into a bio filter sump.) Those fish every night would jump from one cell to another, but never killed each other a bit of flaring a couple of snaps. The naughty ones would then be moved with cells between them and the next fish. Things would settle down. We had very few deaths. The most deaths we had were those jumping out and missing the next-door cell or the sump and then landing on the floor.

Sounds like a horrible set up. Seems like animal cruelty comes naturally to you.
Those fish would also all be juveniles, fresh from the breeders who had kept them in groups. Not adults who had established a territory that needed defending yet.

But you've changed the point. You came in here not to say that male bettas won't fight, as you're claiming now. Let me remind you of your original comments, because you're good at moving the goalposts when you're losing a debate. I've even bolded the relevant bits! Just trying to be helpful

On this site there is always discussion about giving fish what they want because they are genetically weird for different environments and habitats. You talk about Cory's having to be on sand and Tetras in schools of ten or more. Bettas are genetically weird to fight, but you keep them separated from each other. I think the minimum size tank to keep Bettas is 200 liters, two fish in the tank, and then if they want to fight, they can. But they have room to get away from each other. That way they will be a lot happier.

I think you were trying to say "wired". "weird" has a different meaning.

So here's your claim. You say they are genetically weird (sic) to fight, that they enjoy it, and if they fight to the death, the winner will be happy. You standing by those claims?

Thats the whole point that is what they want to do, just imagine how happy the winning fish will feel. There are a lot of people here that are particular about giving their fish what they need, but then advise to keep a Betta in a box by itself, I don't think that is fear on the Betta.

Doesn't the winner get the lady and then can reproduce.

Unless he dies from his wounds and secondary infections. Then you've killed two fish instead of one. Is this the kind of advice you gave to customers?

I love it how people who have never bred a fish or kept them in any numbers can have such strong opinions about their behavior. I love how you can google your heart out and become a fish expert on every fish that ever existed.
I have on the other hand bred hundreds of varieties of fish and studied their behavior; I understand how to set up tanks so that fish can live together peacefully and not chew their heads off. Remember nothing that we do is natural in this hobby. Putting a fish on its own in a tiny tank watching TV all day is what I class as cruel.

So we should put them together because they love to fight. The winner enjoys it and is happy, is your claim, remember. How do you know that he's happy and enjoyed fighting? It's cruel to keep them alone, but not cruel to the losing fish that is killed?
Got any science or research to back that up? While keeping them alone is cruel... a fish that lives alone in the wild... make it make sense.

Sneering at us, claiming we only know stuff from google - classy! All the while claiming to be expert who has all this experience with every fish species. So much so that you argue against the views of recognised experts in the field, claiming you know best. While I remember when you didn't understand how nitrifying bacteria work, and claimed our large water changes would make cycling a tank pointless. You thought we'd throw them away with the water, as if they live in the water column.

Kept fish for all these years, sold and bred them, and didn't know that? Google sure can be useful, so maybe don't talk down to us, hhmm?

If you read my post correctly, my suggestion was a 200-liter tank for two fish, hardly what you would call a confined space considering the fish are only around two inches long.

Get off your PC moral high ground for one moment and think. You have a fish genetically wired to fight; you are going to tell me that fish is going to be happier in a tiny tank by its self-watching TV rather than being in a huge tank with a sparring partner. Take the human out of it, think like a fish.

Again, evidence? Explain what the fish are thinking please. Both the winner and the loser.

Just fundamentally in the animal kingdom don't animals need interaction with other animals? So, keeping a Betta in a ten gallon on its own without any interaction with other fish must be cruel and against the animals' rights.

Would love to see a video of you calling PETA or the RSPCA and asking them if it's cruel to keep bettas alone, and that they love to fight, so isn't it cruel not to make them fight?

You are very opinionated for someone who doesn't keep the fish in question. Just another google expert.

Oh yes, I am certainly opinionated! It's both my best and my worst quality

You either don't know, or forgot, but my parents owned an aviaries and aquatics business. Quite a successful one, for decades. We had a lot of animals as I grew up, and there was always a tank at home too. I was taught, as I hope you were, to always research the needs of a pet before even thinking of buying it. To weigh up whether you could provide for it's needs for the lifespan of the animal. Since we all also have parrots, that's very relevant, given their 60 odd year lifespan.

They also had books. Hundreds of reference books on fish and other animals, so I was raised to read as many books on the topic as possible. Talked to parents about fish keeping, learned from their experiences, talked to other hobbyists, people I met through my LFS etc. You know, the way we had to learn these things in the old days before the World Wide Web?

I also keep and am successfully breeding fish, just not bettas, since I'm not set up to look after a betta the way they need, with my hard water.

But times have moved on, and you're kicking and screaming that people don't do things your way or immediately agree with you, when you provide no evidence or sources. We've just gotta take your word for it, random man online? Okay... sure. I'm sure that's better than using a search engine to find real sources, like evidence of how betta live, establish territories, breed, and live a SOLITARY life in the wild.