Bacterial Additives...

[Tolak]

I feel like I need to add that despite my profile pic, I am not just a person who enjoys impersonating his favorite rock star. I have an A.S. degree in electronics.(carried a lot more respect in the 80's than it does now) I work for the second largest semiconductor company in the U.S. and fourth largest in the world. I have been there for twenty five years. The processes and equipment I work with are valued in the multi millions of dollars. If my employer has trusted me to do things right all that time I think I can follow the idiot proof directions on a bottle of bacteria....

You go Gene!

I graduated High School, and have been running a printing press ever since, ATM for a rattletrap company in a really rough neighborhood. For fun I do fish, rig together as much PVC as possible in a Rube Goldbergesque water change system, and act like a 12 year old in the back yard with 3 terriers.

I see no problem at all with impersonating Gene, Elvis, or anything else on the side, I impersonate an administrator here!

Much of what we learn in other aspects of life can be applied to aquatics. I've taken air & water pump ideas from printing equipment, applied them to my fishroom. I'm sure your knowledge of semiconductors could automate a system such as this. Bacterial knowledge from other sources may well assist in the furthering of this topic, perhaps to the point of actually finding a reliable product.

 

[Randi]

You guys keep up the good work! As a 'watcher' I am really curious to see what will happen.

 

[KISSfn]

I feel like I need to add that despite my profile pic, I am not just a person who enjoys impersonating his favorite rock star. I have an A.S. degree in electronics.(carried a lot more respect in the 80's than it does now) I work for the second largest semiconductor company in the U.S. and fourth largest in the world. I have been there for twenty five years. The processes and equipment I work with are valued in the multi millions of dollars. If my employer has trusted me to do things right all that time I think I can follow the idiot proof directions on a bottle of bacteria....

You go Gene!

I graduated High School, and have been running a printing press ever since, ATM for a rattletrap company in a really rough neighborhood. For fun I do fish, rig together as much PVC as possible in a Rube Goldbergesque water change system, and act like a 12 year old in the back yard with 3 terriers.

I see no problem at all with impersonating Gene, Elvis, or anything else on the side, I impersonate an administrator here!

Much of what we learn in other aspects of life can be applied to aquatics. I've taken air & water pump ideas from printing equipment, applied them to my fishroom. I'm sure your knowledge of semiconductors could automate a system such as this. Bacterial knowledge from other sources may well assist in the furthering of this topic, perhaps to the point of actually finding a reliable product.

Thanks Tolak!

People with degrees (myself excluded!) generally do not impress me at all. I work with some people with Bachelor's and Master's degrees and they are as smart as a box of rocks! I prefer people who can carry on a conversation rather than one who has an expensive piece of paper suitable for framing...

 

[KISSfn]

Turbo Start Day 3 - Ammonia 2mg/l, Nitrite 0, PH 7.6, Temp 75.9. Did a 70% water change. Added Prime. Not looking good...

 

[drobbyb]

WD is right (as always eh?) Terry always has the ability to look at things from a broader perspective (and can get nitty gritty with the science too!)

Since we are sharing our backgrounds.... I graduated from high school with many credits towards college (yay AP classes) with biology and genetics being my best subjects. I have performed many scientific experiments in labs with a final average score of 100%. I may not have a fancy degree or letters behind my name, but I don't need any of that to have valid results or to be able to follow directions.

I once tested a lab quality thermometer against a cheap LFS thermometer. The results were surprising, they were within a tenth of a degree of each other. Some scientific people would argue that a tenth of a degree is a lot, but for the purposes of keeping fish, it's more than accurate enough.

Of course we all know that even with the best science, some things don't always work out on paper as they do in practice.

 

[Bignose]

Something else I would like to mention is this: Science can't explain everything. Sometimes things happen or work or just ARE. Take Homeopathy for one example; doctors and scientists will tell you that there is no evidence that it works but when you look at all the people and animals it's helped, you have to consider that there is something to it which cannot be measured by science but can only be judged on the individuals outcome.

Thanks for reading

Homeopathy works via the placebo effect. The placebo effect is very significant. Show me a result were any homeopathic remedy does statistically significantly better than the placebo effect. I can cite many studies that show they do the same as placebo. Also, if homeopathy "works" there needs to be a viable mechanism for how it works. The current nonsense about the water molecules keeping some of the essence of that they dilute just isn't feasible. That is, it is contrary to everything else we know about water molecules -- a very, very well studied molecule because it is so very important to life.

If these things above can be done, then I promise I'll change my mind. But, they have been tried for many year now, and nothing has been brought forth to date. I'm going to remain skeptical and not hold my breath waiting...

 

[BIG BAD BARRY]

BBB's OK, and adds a sense of humor to what is a hobby for most here. We do this for fun, otherwise it would be too much like work. Actually a bit of thinking outside the box, looking at other bacterial situations such as yogurt is probably something Dr Tim has done to get where he has with his research.

I agree. He is ok.

Of course i am!
The topic was getting to a typical stage as it always does when the issue of BB arises and needed some humour.
Have a look at this topic below, which shows that i am very open minded about the issue of BB.

http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/356899-my-mistakes-for-your-viewing-pleasure/page__p__2972817__fromsearch__1#entry2972817

In fact, earlier in this topic i provided you with a link to a another BB product which contains both nitrobacter and nitrospira as well as nitrosomanas.
Empirical data in relation to BB from the "hobbyist community" is non-existant in comparison to say fishless cycling add and wait method.
Hopefully, your venture will be a step in the right direction.
There are many issues here and one that needs to remain in the spotlight is the one about cost. People here rightly feel that they must warn others about the risks of spending money that either will not result in a desired outcome or that the money could be spent better else where. This does not only relate to BB products but can for example relate to tanks or filters.
Naturally, if a BB product was found that did what it claimed to do, it sales would be boosted by this forum. Look at the recommendations that Seachem Prime and API test kits get. Also, Allpondsolutions filters ( think they are called sunsun across the water) - they are a cheaper alternative to the mainstream filters that apparently work great.
My point is that the hobbyists are not on a mission to denigrate scientific work that they do not understand, they would actually really, really like it to work. Who doesnt want a tank cycled within a week or even two?

The other area that needs to be investigated in relation to BB is the supply chain and transit. Are the manufacturers recommendations for storage conditions being adhered to when these products are being shipped around the world and stored in warehouses and vehicles?

Thank you to the experts for supporting me!

Anyway wouldnt it be easier if we could help new tanks to get started if we supplied mature cheese instead of mature media?

 

[TwoTankAmin]

This is the third site on which I have seen this topic discussed at length in the past 2 years. However, there is one difference between the discussion here and those on two other very well known forums. On them Dr. Hovanec is a member and actively participated in the discussions. He even sent some users free samples and they then reported back the results. In a number of instance he also tried to help out folks who for some reason had failed to read and follow the directions properly or had other cycling related problems.

One forum (where I am not a member) has a single thread with 89 posts in it and a number are by Dr. Tim (aka DocTim). He works to help folks who are not using the product properly. He has also explained why too much ammonia will actually be harmful to the cycle and the bacteria and the same for nitrites. On another forum (where I am a member), possibly the largest general fish forum in English, there are about 7 different threads in which he has posted regarding cycling issues.

Anyone can read the first forum and its 89 post thread. The second forum only lets you read the first and last pages unless you are member. I would really love to be able to link folks here to those sites and threads so you could not only read what the members experiences were using his product, but could also see the answers and explanations he provides. Moreover, he patiently answers questions in these threads and pretty much has converted a lot of doubters.

Since site policy prohibits me from posting the links so you folks can read the above mentioned threads, I can at least suggest how you might be fortunate enough to get Dr. Hovanec to become a member here so that you could "talk" to him yourself. Any of you who have posted in this thread that you have used his One and Only and it did not work need to email him and let him know what your experience was and that you are a member here and you have posted about his product not working. With any luck he will show up and try to figure out why you had no success when so many others have and how to change that. Failing this, a clever Google search should enable you to find these forums and threads on your own. Either way you will all learn a ton as I did.

One final note, I am an all fw person. However, if one searches for info on Dr Tims One and Only some of the larger sw/reef sites come up and there are a number of folks on them who all swear by his product for their sw tanks. I am sure there must be some, but all I read on the sw sites were raves, nobody posted that it didn't work.

 

[drobbyb]

To have someone as intelligent as yourself support a product so passionately at least gives me hope that this one might actually work. I hope it does, it can only benefit the hobby as a whole. Imagine if all those people who failed once and gave up got it to work the first time. It would be a very different hobby.

 

[Bignose]

Since site policy prohibits me from posting the links so you folks can read the above mentioned threads...

TTA,

this site's policy asks that links not be made to other sites when that same information is here. Links to other sites where there is information that is not available here are fine. For example, we are a pretty general forum, and links to the different specialty forums to specialty information has always been welcome.

Since Dr. Tim is not a member here, and hence there would be information elsewhere that is not available here, you may go ahead and post links directly into the relevant threads on those other forums. (A link to just their forum, by comparison, would be deleted.)

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Here is the thing- I have been at this internet fish stuff for about a decade now. I have surfed all kinds of fish sites from the general to the specific and joined a fair number over the years. The best thing that can happen on any site, as far as I am concerned, is for any one or more of the internationally or nationally know experts on aquarium and fish related topics to join and post.

There are not a lot of these sort of folks who tend to post on general forums but if you know the names, you can find them. I would note that a lot of these folks can often be found an larger aquarium related events all over the world. There is nothing neater than to be able to sit and talk with folks like Dr. Hovanec, Ingo Seidel, Heiko Bleher, Ad Konings, etc etc etc.

I have never used any bacterial additives. I used to think they were all snake oil. But Bio-Sira seems to have worked and its successor, SafeStart, seems to have had success and then DrTim's OaO has also. But what made me a fan of Dr. Hovanec was nothing to do with his products. Like most hobbyists I had a few notions about the nature of the bacteria that keep our tanks cycled which I wanted to confirm. So I set out to find if there might be any actual research available. Using Google scholar I found out that Dr. Hovanec was the one who discovered the actual bacteria involved and he was a PhD in microbiology. Unlike most of us, he has actually seen these critters up close and personal. His work is not anecdotal, it is scientifically valid and published. Who am I to refute his work? I learned a bunch of what I believed was not true and then what really were the facts. Moreover, based on what I learned about him as a scientist, a hobbyist and a person made me believe that he would never put his name on a product that he did not firmly believe would work.

I do not believe he is a snake oil salesman. So that leaves two possibilities. Either the product is good and should basically work as advertised when used properly (he freely admits that there can be cases of individual failure due to product mishandling and no product is ever 100% failsafe). The other possibility is that his science is wrong and there is no way the product can work and he has deluded himself. But if this were the case then almost all reports should be of failure and no Public Aquarium would ever use it nor report it worked. Further no saltwater sites should have multiple posts saying it was great stuff.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

This is the third site on which I have seen this topic discussed at length in the past 2 years. However, there is one difference between the discussion here and those on two other very well known forums. On them Dr. Hovanec is a member and actively participated in the discussions. He even sent some users free samples and they then reported back the results. In a number of instance he also tried to help out folks who for some reason had failed to read and follow the directions properly or had other cycling related problems.

One forum (where I am not a member) has a single thread with 89 posts in it and a number are by Dr. Tim (aka DocTim). He works to help folks who are not using the product properly. He has also explained why too much ammonia will actually be harmful to the cycle and the bacteria and the same for nitrites. On another forum (where I am a member), possibly the largest general fish forum in English, there are about 7 different threads in which he has posted regarding cycling issues.

Anyone can read the first forum and its 89 post thread. The second forum only lets you read the first and last pages unless you are member. I would really love to be able to link folks here to those sites and threads so you could not only read what the members experiences were using his product, but could also see the answers and explanations he provides. Moreover, he patiently answers questions in these threads and pretty much has converted a lot of doubters.

Since site policy prohibits me from posting the links so you folks can read the above mentioned threads, I can at least suggest how you might be fortunate enough to get Dr. Hovanec to become a member here so that you could "talk" to him yourself. Any of you who have posted in this thread that you have used his One and Only and it did not work need to email him and let him know what your experience was and that you are a member here and you have posted about his product not working. With any luck he will show up and try to figure out why you had no success when so many others have and how to change that. Failing this, a clever Google search should enable you to find these forums and threads on your own. Either way you will all learn a ton as I did.

One final note, I am an all fw person. However, if one searches for info on Dr Tims One and Only some of the larger sw/reef sites come up and there are a number of folks on them who all swear by his product for their sw tanks. I am sure there must be some, but all I read on the sw sites were raves, nobody posted that it didn't work.

I think the fact that you have seen it discussed so much recently for a reason... people don't want to spend two months or so cycling a tank. People don't get a fish tank because they have dreamed of using water parameter test kits! However, there has been a lot of problems with their tanks after using the products. (Partly I think the issue is that folks didn't still do a fishless cycle, even with the additives, which would ensure that the tank was ready to go with fish before putting fish in the tank.) The big issue is that there seems to some level of complexity with the product. If it were as simple as people really need - simply pour it into the tank, wait a day (or less) and add fish, then this wouldn't be an issue anymore. I say this because I have seen the way people buy fish. I've been lurking in a few LFSs recently, and watched folks. I've seen teens through 20-somethings picking up a fish and then taking the fish in the bag, and walking through the tank area trying to find a tank that the fish will fit into! Obviously, they have done no research leading up to the purchase, and probably aren't going to put a lot of effort into ensuring the best for their fish... daily water testing, daily water changes, etc. These folks are not preparing to do a fish-in cycle, nor are they prepared already with mature media. This is an impulse buy and they are setting themselves up for disappointment. If an idiot-proof (pardon the term) product existed, a lot more folks would stick with the hobby, and if more people were hobbyists, chances are that a lot of the abusive behaviors would be more vilified, rather than having folks shrug it off - "after all it is just a fish". (sarcasm added)



TwoTank, I would very much enjoy reading that thread. So, if it wouldn't be too much trouble, could you send me the link in a PM or something?

I did find this: fishforums.net thread from 2008 (DocTIm was last on this site in AUG 2010 - 6 posts, all in a thread called "Nitrifying Bacteria")

End of Day one results:

I spoke with my wife (since she has much better color sensitivity than I do), and we both concluded that the ammonia level was NOT the same as the one last night (4ppm), but not quite as light a green as the 2ppm reading. (We are using the API Master Kit). So, I will approximate the ammonia level after 24 hours to be 3-4ppm.

Long story short:
pH:8.4 (steady), NH3: 3-4ppm, NO2:0ppm, NO3:0ppm, Temp: 84F (noting the temp increase of a full 2 degrees over the past 24 hours, I dropped the setting on my heater by one click. I'll check it again in the morning.) My target temp right now is 84F, so I am happy about that, but I don't want it to go above 85 or so.

 

[waterdrop]

Since site policy prohibits me from posting the links so you folks can read the above mentioned threads...

TTA,

this site's policy asks that links not be made to other sites when that same information is here. Links to other sites where there is information that is not available here are fine. For example, we are a pretty general forum, and links to the different specialty forums to specialty information has always been welcome.

Since Dr. Tim is not a member here, and hence there would be information elsewhere that is not available here, you may go ahead and post links directly into the relevant threads on those other forums. (A link to just their forum, by comparison, would be deleted.)

Actually, Dr. Tim -is- a member of TFF (his login is DocTim) but unfortunately he was only really active for a short while I believe. I did some PMs with him. I learned a number of the things I pass on in the beginner section directly from him. I am just like you 2TA in that I've remained very impressed with all his papers and all the other information I've had from him. As far as I can remember we've only ever had a single person here in the beginners section try out the OaO BB (prior to Kiss) and that one didn't work out. So we really just have no stats from our own subforum here. During my first year here in 2008 we used to get a fair number of members who felt their cycling had been speeded up by one or the other of two products at that time (one was biospira and I'm forgetting the other event though we used to dutifully report them at the time, then one stopped being for sale.) One of the products was obtainable in the UK and in a bunch of threads we got interesting in why it mostly never worked but could create strong admirers among the few for whom it did work. We eventually figured out that every case on TFF where it did work had made the purchase at the same LFS and that that LFS had one transport driver who had a refridgerated truck and refused to leave the stuff on the loading dock if there was no one to put it in the LFS fridge right away. (I forget if that was the Biospira or the other one.)

I think for us "watchers" it partly just bacame tiring because for 2009 and 2010 virtually all our reports were negative, dozens of cases where people bought and tried BBs but really saw no difference in their cycle. These were a variety of products. Meanwhile, standard fishless cycles continued to be reliable, if lengthy and mature media seedings continued to make things faster in most cases. I am pretty different from eagle in that it doesn't bother me at all to take a couple months to do a fishless cycle. It's a drop in the bucket compared to the many years the tank will be running and I've become enough fascinated with the topic that I consider it part of the hobby. It's really handy that it is about the right learning period for beginners to pick up the basics of water changing and filter maintenance and most of all get a start on the difficult aspects of how to make good stocking plans.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[eaglesaquarium]

I think for us "watchers" it partly just became tiring because for 2009 and 2010 virtually all our reports were negative, dozens of cases where people bought and tried BBs but really saw no difference in their cycle. These were a variety of products. Meanwhile, standard fishless cycles continued to be reliable, if lengthy and mature media seedings continued to make things faster in most cases. I am pretty different from eagle in that it doesn't bother me at all to take a couple months to do a fishless cycle. It's a drop in the bucket compared to the many years the tank will be running and I've become enough fascinated with the topic that I consider it part of the hobby. It's really handy that it is about the right learning period for beginners to pick up the basics of water changing and filter maintenance and most of all get a start on the difficult aspects of how to make good stocking plans.

~~waterdrop~~

I am a bit impatient at times, but I never jump into something prematurely. Again, that's why I am here researching and doing all this now, even though the fish tank I want won't be a possibility until basically September. But, even though my goal is really to keep fish, I recognize that I need to start by keeping bacteria (certainly not nearly as nice to look at though... )

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Certainly, I recognize that testing every 12 hours is not necessary, but I figure the more data I produce the more information will be available...

Day 2: 5/1/11 - 09:00 pH: 8.4, NH3: 3-4ppm (hard to tell, but a bit lighter than 4ppm), NO2: 0ppm, NO3: 0ppm, temp: 83F (the drop in temp caused me to put the heater back to where it was last night... I want to maintain 84F.)