Bacterial Additives...

[waterdrop]

Among the many unknowns, one of the biggest will be the thing we never know: how many Nitrosomonas and Nitrospira cells happen to have shot in to eagle's tank on the day of the fill from the particular set of pipes that feed his home. As a watcher of a lot of threads I can contribute that it is important to be aware that we see some fishless cycles (standard ammonia ones with no MM or BB added) where the first ammonia drop occurs rapidly, within the first days or week, then the nitrite spike occurs and is a week or less and then the drops near zeros or actually has a qualification week and looks finished around 3 weeks or a little more. If we see that sort of timing here, it might or might not be due to the BB, if it is faster than that we might suspect the BB has contributed. In either case, if we see a fishless cycle seem to complete in less than a month then we still have to be suspect about how it will perform in the acid test of the big water change and first stocking and whether we then see any mini-spiking that would indicate poor biofilter performance.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Among the many unknowns, one of the biggest will be the thing we never know: how many Nitrosomonas and Nitrospira cells happen to have shot in to eagle's tank on the day of the fill from the particular set of pipes that feed his home. As a watcher of a lot of threads I can contribute that it is important to be aware that we see some fishless cycles (standard ammonia ones with no MM or BB added) where the first ammonia drop occurs rapidly, within the first days or week, then the nitrite spike occurs and is a week or less and then the drops near zeros or actually has a qualification week and looks finished around 3 weeks or a little more. If we see that sort of timing here, it might or might not be due to the BB, if it is faster than that we might suspect the BB has contributed. In either case, if we see a fishless cycle seem to complete in less than a month then we still have to be suspect about how it will perform in the acid test of the big water change and first stocking and whether we then see any mini-spiking that would indicate poor biofilter performance.

~~waterdrop~~

Well, I may or may not actually stock this tank immediately after the cycle is complete. There are a variety of factors involved in that decision. THe biggest factor is that I would need to be able to give them to someone to care for them for basically two months. And if I don't have the time to keep a close eye on them for the first month, I don't think it would be fair to stock it just before giving it to someone else. (So, I may give it to my brother with the instructions to add ammonia daily, and water change every week. He can easily do that, and I would then stock the tank - or the bigger one, with the same filter - very soon afterwards.) Sorry that this won't exactly be as solid an experiment as I was hoping, but life gets in the way sometimes.

 

[KISSfn]

Turbo Start Day 4 - Ammonia 2mg/l, Temp 76.3. No need to waste reagents on any other parameters since Ammonia levels are not dropping at all but rising. If Turbo Start was in fact working Ammonia would drop. Since product claims to work in 5 days or less I will waste another test tomorrow on Ammonia levels. So far, in my opinion, Fritz Zyme's Turbo Start 700 can be added to my list of uselss products tried which include Tetra Safe Start and Dr. Tim's One and Only. Adding Prime in the interest of my fish.

 

[Bignose]

Among the many unknowns, one of the biggest will be the thing we never know: how many Nitrosomonas and Nitrospira cells happen to have shot in to eagle's tank on the day of the fill from the particular set of pipes that feed his home.

Yes, a primary source of the ammonia oxidizing and nitrite oxidizing bacteria are from water purification plants. Since with ample food and the right temperature, these bacteria will double in number roughly every day, the original amount becomes a very important parameter to how long the overall process takes. A small change in the initial number can have very significant implications on total number of days.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

It's a few hours early for my next test, but since it is Sunday, and I am home, I figured why not just test the ammonia for kicks! Well, I did it and my wife and I agree that the ammonia level is about 2ppm, maybe slightly higher. That made me need to test nitrites, but they came up at zero. So, if ammonia was being processed, and I didn't see any nitrites, then nitrates had to be there, right?! Well, after about a two hour delay - turns out my son has pink eye! Had to get him to a doctor, and then some antibiotics - I finally got back home and tested for nitrates. The nitrate level has risen. It isn't up to 5 ppm, but it is definitely not 0ppm any more.


So, at this point, I have NH3: 2-3ppm, NO2: 0ppm, NO3>0ppm. Certainly not time to celebrate, but definitely starting to head in the right direction, and fairly quickly.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Ok, its the morning of Day 3 and here are the results of the morning test (yes, I know I don't need to test every 12 hours right now, but it can't do any harm.)


Ammonia is dropping steady now, according to what I am perceiving in the "green" of the tube. I would say it is between 1-2 ppm now. (that means nitrite right?)
Nitrite continues to read at zero. Is this stuff not showing up, or is it being processed as quickly as it is being made?
Nitrate seems to be rising, but it is hard to tell, since it has a slight orange tinge to the water, but not the full orange of the 5ppm, which is barely orange anyway!



I will update everyone on one minor change I made last night. I was worried about the sponge filter powered by the air pump not being sufficient for the tank to be circulating water - I noticed some sort of "gelatinous" debris on the bottom of the tank wasn't moving. So, I put my big Penguin 350 on the tank last night. I only am running it with the biowheels, not the cartridges, because they contain carbon - and removing the carbon may destroy the cartridge anyway. I'm going to be looking for a solution to this in the coming weeks. Perhaps I can find a way to get the carbon out.



Any opinions?

 

[waterdrop]

In the fishless cycling threads over the years I've often found two things that seem to go along with the very first bit of ammonia dropping. First, the slowness of any initial dropping that is due to bacteria could possibly be being processed by N-Bacs into nitrate but the typical hobbyist nitrate test is too crude to pick it up small increases very well.

Secondly, I've also observed what I believe to somehow be simple absorption of some of the ammonia by all the new materials in the tank: substrate, new filter media and possibly other things. It is, after all, not a controlled, non-reactive situation and we don't really know the surface qualities of the many materials in a tank. At any rate, we've sometimes observed a small quick drop in ammonia only to be immediately followed by non-movement in the numbers for a period after that. We'll see if yours follows that.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[eaglesaquarium]

In the fishless cycling threads over the years I've often found two things that seem to go along with the very first bit of ammonia dropping. First, the slowness of any initial dropping that is due to bacteria could possibly be being processed by N-Bacs into nitrate but the typical hobbyist nitrate test is too crude to pick it up small increases very well.

Secondly, I've also observed what I believe to somehow be simple absorption of some of the ammonia by all the new materials in the tank: substrate, new filter media and possibly other things. It is, after all, not a controlled, non-reactive situation and we don't really know the surface qualities of the many materials in a tank. At any rate, we've sometimes observed a small quick drop in ammonia only to be immediately followed by non-movement in the numbers for a period after that. We'll see if yours follows that.

~~waterdrop~~

That makes sense. I have no substrate, so that effect should be minimized, although the addition of the biowheel certainly might have allowed for some absorption. This is a temporary location - and is basically a temporary tank - so I didn't see a need for substrate, especially since the filter is where the vast majority of bacteria will be colonized.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

[font="Helvetica][color="#000000"]

[/color][/font] So, I put my big Penguin 350 on the tank last night. I only am running it with the biowheels, not the cartridges, because they contain carbon - and removing the carbon may destroy the cartridge anyway. I'm going to be looking for a solution to this in the coming weeks. Perhaps I can find a way to get the carbon out.[font="Helvetica][color="#000000"]

KENS CARBON FREE FILTER CARTRIDGES FOR PENGUIN FILTERS:
[/color][/font][font="Helvetica][color="#000000"]Made to fit Penguin 130, 160, 170, 300, 350 as well as Auto-Flo 1&2, and Ultra-Flo 200, and Aqua-tech 1, 2 & 20-30/30 & 30-60. Carbon Free! (Replaces OEM size C) [/color][/font][font="Helvetica][color="#000000"]$1.40 EACH

kensfish.com
[/color][/font]

 

[OldMan47]

The slight decrease in ammonia being seen can be attributed to nothing more than the simple fact that ammonium hydroxide in a water solution will see some of the chemical show up as dissolved ammonia gas. Gaseous exchange at the water surface will slowly remove that ammonia. That means a slow decrease in ammonia concentration without a corresponding build in nitrites. If you open a bottle of ammonia and place your nose next to it, definitely not something I will ever repeat, you will know with certainty that ammonia comes out of solution. I do not advise doing this unless you are absolutely certain that ammonia cannot come out of solution, you will quickly become a believer, once you stop hacking and coughing from the fumes.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

[font="Helvetica][color="#000000"]

[/color][/font] So, I put my big Penguin 350 on the tank last night. I only am running it with the biowheels, not the cartridges, because they contain carbon - and removing the carbon may destroy the cartridge anyway. I'm going to be looking for a solution to this in the coming weeks. Perhaps I can find a way to get the carbon out.[font="Helvetica][color="#000000"]

KENS CARBON FREE FILTER CARTRIDGES FOR PENGUIN FILTERS:
[/color][/font][font="Helvetica][color="#000000"]Made to fit Penguin 130, 160, 170, 300, 350 as well as Auto-Flo 1&2, and Ultra-Flo 200, and Aqua-tech 1, 2 & 20-30/30 & 30-60. Carbon Free! (Replaces OEM size C) [/color][/font][font="Helvetica][color="#000000"]$1.40 EACH

kensfish.com
[/color][/font]

That is great. I will look to see if I can find that from another source. Not that this isn't great - because it is - but the shipping costs are 4x more than the product! Are there other outlets that sell this (or similar)? I'll bite the bullet on the shipping if I have to, but it seems rather high for shipping. USPS flat rate boxes would be cheaper! Looking at the price of the Pengiun replacement cartridges, it actually is a pretty good deal, even if I do need to spend so much in shipping.


THANKS

 

[eaglesaquarium]

The slight decrease in ammonia being seen can be attributed to nothing more than the simple fact that ammonium hydroxide in a water solution will see some of the chemical show up as dissolved ammonia gas. Gaseous exchange at the water surface will slowly remove that ammonia. That means a slow decrease in ammonia concentration without a corresponding build in nitrites. If you open a bottle of ammonia and place your nose next to it, definitely not something I will ever repeat, you will know with certainty that ammonia comes out of solution. I do not advise doing this unless you are absolutely certain that ammonia cannot come out of solution, you will quickly become a believer, once you stop hacking and coughing from the fumes.

I accidentally inhaled a HUGE amount of ammonia when I underestimated exactly how strong a 10% concentration of ammonia was. I poured about a cup (250ml - for the folks across the pond) of the stuff into the tank for cleaning purposes, and then I was immediately smacked in the face with this unbelievable stench of ammonia. Needless to say, I won't do that again. I had to go outside (with the tank) to get a breath of fresh air and I had to keep my breathing shallow for a bit, so that I didn't have burning all the way through my sinuses, throat, etc. It took a few minutes to get back to normal breathing without any strange sensations from the fumes... so I have no problem believing that the ammonia is just evaporating actually! (In fact, just thinking back on it is causing me to feel it again!)

 

[KISSfn]

Turbo Start Day 5 - Ammonia 3mg/l, this stuff is as useless as the two others I have wasted time and money on. 70% water change and Prime added.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Turbo Start Day 5 - Ammonia 3mg/l, this stuff is as useless as the two others I have wasted time and money on. 70% water change and Prime added.

Sorry about that. But, at least you can say you gave every one of them an opportunity to work.

 

[Caprichoso]

Something else I would like to mention is this: Science can't explain everything. Sometimes things happen or work or just ARE. Take Homeopathy for one example; doctors and scientists will tell you that there is no evidence that it works but when you look at all the people and animals it's helped, you have to consider that there is something to it which cannot be measured by science but can only be judged on the individuals outcome.

Thanks for reading

Homeopathy works via the placebo effect. The placebo effect is very significant. Show me a result were any homeopathic remedy does statistically significantly better than the placebo effect. I can cite many studies that show they do the same as placebo. Also, if homeopathy "works" there needs to be a viable mechanism for how it works. The current nonsense about the water molecules keeping some of the essence of that they dilute just isn't feasible. That is, it is contrary to everything else we know about water molecules -- a very, very well studied molecule because it is so very important to life.

If these things above can be done, then I promise I'll change my mind. But, they have been tried for many year now, and nothing has been brought forth to date. I'm going to remain skeptical and not hold my breath waiting...

Geez, I shouldn't have even given that as an example...well, here you go...
I've used it for years on my pets and let me assure you it works. My vet promotes it in his clinic and has helped thousands of animals. Animals cannot suffer the placebo effect because they don't even know they are being given anything. I once was a sceptic like you and was very close minded about matters which cannot be explained by science. I have seen the results firsthand and am now a believer in many things that I thought were for flaky, crazy hippies. Once again, I will say to you that some things science CANNOT explain but they happen regardless. I think that we don't need an answer for everything, I like all the wonder and mysteries of our universe. And so I will continue to wonder how my bacteria starter works so well for me when it hasn't worked for others. Sorry, we're off topic now. I'm done. Back to the bacteria please!!