Bacterial Additives...

[eaglesaquarium]

Most recent update:

pH: not tested (really don't see a need), NH3:1ppm (definitely), NO2:0ppm, NO3:>0ppm, <5ppm, temp 84F


Well, it would seem that primarily the NH3 is being absorbed or evaporating, because it certainly isn't being converted to nitrite or nitrate! Well, you know what they say about the best laid plans of mice and men! Well, it might be time to settle in for a long cycle... "Regular" cycling experts, any and all advice is welcomed!

 

[BIG BAD BARRY]

Are you not going to wait at least 10 days to see if there are any notable changes?

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Are you not going to wait at least 10 days to see if there are any notable changes?

I'm not sure what you mean... I am not stopping the cycle. I am going to let it continue to run its course, but the course it is on right now looks a lot more like a regular fishless cycle than one that has been seeded (at least to my untrained eye).

Today's results are the same this morning as last night.

pH: 8.4, NH3: 1ppm, NO2: 0ppm, NO3: >0ppm, <5ppm, temp 84F


I am thinking that a redose of ammonia is going to be necessary soon. If things continue as they have been the NH3 should be down to 0.5ppm or less in another 12-24 hours.



Sorry, Barry. I'm just feeling a little less optimistic about the product than before. It might still zip the rest of the process along, but I'm really starting to doubt it. But, I also doubted that my own beloved Philadelphia Flyers could come back from a 3 games to none deficit in the playoffs last year, or a 3 goals - none deficit in game 7, but they did. So, I don't always get it right! (BTW, after last night's game, they have to come back from a 2 games to zero deficit to the same team as last year.


Ultimately though, the world seems a little different today than just two days ago. sama: U-S-A..... U-S-A! A little closure for a LOT of folks in this country. Well done military folks...

 

[BIG BAD BARRY]

Just from a quick search of the product info, there is a graph on the page which shows that ammonia levels hit 0ppm around 10 days.

http/www.seapets.co.uk/custom-page/file/safestart.html

Did not find much on Tetras site but dont have time today!
I know your plans have changed so how close will your cycling run to the manufacturers recommendatiions?
The only reason i ask is that with Dr Tims product they advise fishless and fish in methods if i recall.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Just from a quick search of the product info, there is a graph on the page which shows that ammonia levels hit 0ppm around 10 days.

http/www.seapets.co.uk/custom-page/file/safestart.html

Did not find much on Tetras site but dont have time today!
I know your plans have changed so how close will your cycling run to the manufacturers recommendatiions?
The only reason i ask is that with Dr Tims product they advise fishless and fish in methods if i recall.

My cycling will match a standard fishless cycle (add and wait method). I added the ammonia first, then the bacteria (all in one, as directed by the manufacturer's directions).


If the whole thing finishes in 10 days, I'd be thrilled (and stunned) if that happens. We are on Day 4 now, and while the ammonia is dropping, I haven't seen any rise in nitrites, and not really much in the nitrates. Maybe the slight tinge of orange in the nitrate is due to the ammonia drop. I don't know. If the ammonia levels start dropping faster, while still no nitrite reading, the nitrates will actually hit 5ppm. But, as of right now, I haven't seen that. Also, I confirmed that the test kit is able to give nitrite and nitrate readings. I used it to test my brothers amazon dwarf frog tanks. Both came back with results just before he was scheduled to do a water change. So, the reagents and my testing procedures work fine. I just haven't got a reading from nitrite and a nitrate blip, but nothing truly readable like at 5ppm. We shall see.


The manufacturers directions are pretty simple. 1) Shake bottle well. 2) Add product to tank (entire package). 3) add fish to aquarium. (There is no guideline for how long to wait. So, a person who buys this product would assume (I believe) that you could add this product while the fish purchased at the same time are going through the acclimation process. By the time the process is complete, the product should have done it's job. Fish-in cycle complete. It does not mention continued testing for ammonia or nitrites. It doesn't mention any need for water changes if levels rise... It claims to reduce fish loss due to toxic levels of ammonia and nitrite.

But, 3 days of ammonia well above 0.25 ppm would be a problem, I would think... although if it is primarily a fish-in cycling product, it may not be intended to use with such a large (synthetic) bioload immediately. This I expected. But, I figured that I would see more of a reading on the nitrates, if it were truly working. Maybe it just needs more time to get the nitrates to a level that I can read. But, if the ammonia is dropping so drastically, I would expect to see a more significant difference in the nitrates than I have thus far. Out of curiosity, since biochemistry is not my forte, if 3ppm of ammonia have been processed already, how many ppm of nitrates should be present after going through the full cycle?

 

[KISSfn]

Turbo Start Day 5 - Ammonia 3mg/l, this stuff is as useless as the two others I have wasted time and money on. 70% water change and Prime added.

Sorry about that. But, at least you can say you gave every one of them an opportunity to work.

I definitely tried all three and proved that when used as directed, all three are useless. I hope my experience will stop as many people as possible from wasting their money and it would not hurt my feelings one bit if all three companies were put out of business. I plan on telling my experience to anyone who will listen. So, in summary, Tetra Safe Start, Dr. Tim's One and Only and Fritz Zyme's Turbo Start 700 absolutely DO NOT do what they claim to do! DO NOT buy them and continue to make the companies that take advantage of people rich!

 

[eaglesaquarium]

So, here's the latest.

Day 4, 5/3/11, 20:00 pH:N/A, NH3: 0.5ppm, NO2:0ppm, NO3: >0ppm, <5ppm, temp: 86F.


Not surprisingly, the NH3 is down to 0.5ppm, which is about where it has been running. It seems to be dropping 0.5ppm every 12 hours now. Chances are the NH3 will be either 0 or very close by morning. I am considering redosing up to 4ppm tonight. Any thoughts on that folks?




EDIT: I left the nitrates sit for a while, and when I looked at it two hours later, it clearly appeared to be 5 ppm. I have retested and after the 5 minutes it doesn't appear to be 5ppm, but after about 10 minutes, it is darn close to 5ppm orange.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

For those still following along, the ammonia drop stalled a bit this morning, holding steady at 0.5ppm. The nitrite still has yet to register as anything but zero, and the nitrates seem to be making a VERY slow climb towards 5ppm. I think that I may need to redose ammonia when I get home tonight. I have been at or under 1ppm for a couple days now, so it couldn't do any harm. That may be enough to kickstart the ammonia drop again, or not. I am currently fighting my impatience. With that in mind, I believe I will be heading off to one of the many LFS in my area. The one I am heading off to tonight is the biggest in the county, as far as I know. Later this summer I will be stopping by "thatpetplace" of Lancaster, PA, since I will be working in that area for a few weeks this summer. (They have the pygmy cories I want, and seem to be the only "L"FS that does. They are about 2 hours from my home, but I figure that if they can guarantee that fish arrive alive after 5 days, they could package them properly for a two hour drive!


So, my focus is shifting back to stocking my 56 gallon with fish and plants. Does anyone see a problem with pygmy cories in a tank that is 2 feet tall? I know they like to shoot up to the surface from time to time, will 2 feet be too high for them to feel comfortable? (I'm thinking about a nice school of 12, maybe 15.)

 

[OldMan47]

As long as you have some residual ammonia, you have plenty to encourage the A-bacs developing. It is the reason that add and wait works so well. The specific concentration of ammonia does not matter much unless it gets high enough to encourage the development of the wrong bacteria. When it is hard to tell whether or not you have any remaining ammonia is soon enough to dose back up to 4 or 5 ppm.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Thanks again OM47.


I just tested (a little) early:

pH:N/A, NH3: <0.25ppm, NO2: 0ppm, NO3: I just don't know any more. After 5 minutes it isn't as dark as when I let it sit for a few hours. Maybe 3-4ppm, based on 5 minutes... maybe a little higher. Either way, it isn't showing much movement there. temp: 83F.


Redosed ammonia up to ~4ppm.

 

[anon02]

1 ppm of ammonia should metabolise to about 3.6 ppm nitrate. I`m no expert but maybe the product you`re using works chemically rather than biologically to give the naturally occuring bacteria time to establish,if so that would account for the reduction of ammonia and slow rise in by products
Just a shot in the dark

 

[eaglesaquarium]

1 ppm of ammonia should metabolise to about 3.6 ppm nitrate. I`m no expert but maybe the product you`re using works chemically rather than biologically to give the naturally occuring bacteria time to establish,if so that would account for the reduction of ammonia and slow rise in by products
Just a shot in the dark

I have considered that. Thanks for following along.


Day 6: 05/05/11: 07:00, pH:N/A, NH3: ~3ppm, NO2: 0ppm, NO3: ~3ppm, temp 83F

 

[waterdrop]

Yes, each 1ppm of ammonia is processed by the A-Bacs into about 2.7ppm of nitrite(NO2) and then eventually on to about 3.6ppm of nitrate(NO3) with the help of the N-Bacs.

Your first 4ppm should put you at about 14ppm of NO3 and this second dose should show about 29ppm once the ammonia has dropped to near zero ppm again. This would be if there were really two populations of bacteria that had come in via the BB and were now working as a biofilter. The zero nitrite(NO2) readings don't tell us much either way: If the BB really brought in some working N-Bacs then they could be slowly processing nitrite through to nitrate and you wouldn't see any excess nitrite. But likewise, if there are really hardly any N-bacs there now (as in a non-seeded cycle) you'd not see anything yet.

So the results so far favor the majority of what we've seen over the years, that the BB hasn't suddenly made the filter start behaving like a working biofilter. But it is still pretty early to tell whether it might still have had a little speed-up, although unfortunately such a speed-up gets harder and harder to differentiate from just a fast case of a traditional ammonia fishless cycle as days go by.

Of course, the thing to do is to simply keep measuring and posting data.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Yes, each 1ppm of ammonia is processed by the A-Bacs into about 2.7ppm of nitrite(NO2) and then eventually on to about 3.6ppm of nitrate(NO3) with the help of the N-Bacs.

Your first 4ppm should put you at about 14ppm of NO3 and this second dose should show about 29ppm once the ammonia has dropped to near zero ppm again. This would be if there were really two populations of bacteria that had come in via the BB and were now working as a biofilter. The zero nitrite(NO2) readings don't tell us much either way: If the BB really brought in some working N-Bacs then they could be slowly processing nitrite through to nitrate and you wouldn't see any excess nitrite. But likewise, if there are really hardly any N-bacs there now (as in a non-seeded cycle) you'd not see anything yet.

So the results so far favor the majority of what we've seen over the years, that the BB hasn't suddenly made the filter start behaving like a working biofilter. But it is still pretty early to tell whether it might still have had a little speed-up, although unfortunately such a speed-up gets harder and harder to differentiate from just a fast case of a traditional ammonia fishless cycle as days go by.

Of course, the thing to do is to simply keep measuring and posting data.

~~waterdrop~~

Yup.

Latest stats:
Day 6: pH: 8.4 (rock solid), NH3: 3-4ppm, NO2: 0ppm (I did see a little purple on the very bottom of the vial after the five minutes...maybe a little movement... maybe nothing), NO3: something, but still not even a full 5ppm yet...


Looking ahead...
All this time allows me to think (rethink, as you notice this is not what is in my sig) about stocking my big tank. I am starting to really like Tiger Barbs... but that choice, if I make it, might limit my other options. I am thinking about Kribs as well, but I've read that they are more aggressive recently than what I originally had read. Ultimately, I must have a school of corydoras (love them ), either pygmy or regular, then I want a nice big school of something else (cardinals, zebra danios, tiger barbs, etc.) and then mix in a few specimens of some more interesting fish to top it off. Something with a little size would be nice. And finally, shrimp might be a nice addition down the line.

 

[KISSfn]

I LOVE my Tiger Barbs and Green Barbs!