Bacterial Additives...

[KISSfn]

The only one that I am aware of associated with Tim Havonec is the One and Only product. If you want to go by sales hype, that would be your best bet for a decent product.

Yes, that's true, and I seriously considered it. It is being "tested" by KISSfn right now.

I went with SafeStart, because it is the product that Tetra decided was "better" than Biospira - which is the only product that anyone seems to give much credence to (plus it was $2 cheaper to treat a 30 gallon tank ). I got it from FosterandSmith's (and comes with a 100% guarantee. If it doesn't work, I plan to send it back and try the other one!)



EDIT***
I believe Havonec was a part of the process of developing Biospira, but I could be wrong about that.

Dr. Tim's One and Only has failed it's test already as has my test of Safe Start. My current test is with Fritz Zyme Turbo Start 700...

 

[KISSfn]

Day 2 - Ammonia 1mg/l, Nitrite 0, PH 7.6, Temp 75.7. Prime added to lessen toxicity of Ammonia.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Well, my stuff came in the mail today, so I will be setting the tank up tonight, adding ammonia, and starting the trial with SafeStart tonight. We shall see how it goes.

 

[KISSfn]

Blazing the trail in the name of science...

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Blazing the trail in the name of science...

That's my story...

I just unloaded the box, and foster and smith shipped the Safe Start in an insulated little pouch, with two cool packs (not frozen) to help keep the bottle from getting too warm during shipping. I probably shouldn't get my hopes up, but I will say that they seemed to have treated it in a way that gives the stuff the best possible chance at working the way it is designed.



EDIT*** ironically, I forgot to order airline tubing and a thermometer! Looks like I have a little shopping to do first!

 

[KISSfn]

Definitely don't get your hopes up as that is how they shipped my bottle of Dr. Tim's One and Only! When I ship it back for my refund attempt it will be shipped without any special care as it obviously needs none! I'm glad you're trying though!

 

[Caprichoso]

I have found this thread quite interesting and I have a question for you guys. Why does the bacteria have to be refrigerated in the first place? Doesn't bacteria live in all temperatures? I can see if you have to chill it once it's opened,(like soy milk or something) so that it doesn't go bad but why does it need to arrive in cold packs? Also, if keeping it cold preserves the bacteria, wouldn't it die off as soon as you put it into your tank water which would be much warmer than fridge temperature? I'm just curious as to what your thoughts are.

Something else I would like to mention is this: Science can't explain everything. Sometimes things happen or work or just ARE. Take Homeopathy for one example; doctors and scientists will tell you that there is no evidence that it works but when you look at all the people and animals it's helped, you have to consider that there is something to it which cannot be measured by science but can only be judged on the individuals outcome.

Thanks for reading

 

[TwoTankAmin]

I can not keep silent any more.

I would not consider anything said in this thread by kissfn to have any scientific validity at all. There are many other totally false and undocumented statements being made by a number of other posters as well.

ianho- can you please provide evidence that Sea Life Aquariums own any part of Dr. Hovanec's businesses or processes as you have stated in this thread.

eagle you wrote:

The nitrifying bacteria in "Turbo Start" are not the same as "Biospira" (Nitrospira), but instead a different type that does the same thing (converts nitrite to nitrate) called nitrobacter.

The reasearch by Dr. Hovanec in 1998 would seem to have proven this is incorrect in reference to aquariums.

Hovanec, T. A., L. T. Taylor, A. Blakis and E. F. DeLong. 1998. Nitrospira- Like Bacteria Associated with Nitrite Oxidation in Freshwater Aquaria. Applied and Environmental Microbiology Vol. 64, No. 1: 258-264.

Abstract: Oxidation of nitrite to nitrate in aquaria is typically attributed to bacteria belonging to the genus Nitrobacter which are members of the alpha subdivision of the Proteobacteria. In order to identify bacteria responsible for nitrite-oxidation in aquaria, clone libraries of rRNA genes were developed from biofilms of several freshwater aquaria. Analysis of the rDNA libraries, along with results from denaturing gradient gel electrophoresis (DGGE) on frequently sampled biofilms, indicated the presence of a putative nitrite-oxidizing bacteria closely related to the genus Nitrospira. Nucleic acid hybridization experiments with rRNA from biofilms of freshwater aquaria demonstrated that Nitrospira-like rRNA comprised nearly 5% of the rRNA extracted from the biofilms during the establishment of nitrification. Nitrite-oxidizing bacteria belonging to the alpha Proteobacteria subdivision (e. g., Nitrobacter spp.) were not detected in same samples. Aquaria which received a commercial preparation containing Nitrobacter species did not show evidence of Nitrobacter growth and development but did develop substantial populations of Nitrospira-like species. Time series analysis of rDNA phylotypes on aquaria biofilms by DGGE, combined with nitrite and nitrate analysis, showed a correspondence between the appearance of Nitrospira-like bacterial ribosomal DNA, and the initiation of nitrite oxidation. In total, the data suggest that Nitrobacter winogradskyi and close relatives were not the dominant nitrite-oxidizing bacteria in freshwater aquaria. Instead, nitrite oxidation in freshwater aquaria appeared to be mediated by bacteria closely related to Nitrospira moscoviensis and Nitrospira marina.
hovanecAEM_Jan98

If anybody wants to do anything close to a scientific study of this subject you will need to keep a journal which provides daily readings of:
1. Water temperature.
2. pH level.
3. Ammonia level.
4. Nitrite level.
5. Nitrate level.

There should be no live plants nor any cycled material in the tank(s) as these will both interfere with results and thus invalidate them. A base level readings for the tank should be taken when it is set up.

In addition, information on the brand and quantity of any dechlor added should be recorded with dosing details included..
The type and manufacturer of all test kits or digital meters used should be recorded.
The type and dosing for any ammonia added or the presence or addition of fish should also be recorded with details.
The amount of any water changes done and if done, the new water going in should have its parameters recorded before it is added.

The specific bacterial addivte should be named. Under what conditions it was in when purchased ( ie refrigerated, in a temperature controlled environment etc etc.) The packaging date and lot number and expiration date should also be recorded. The dates/times for everything done should also be recorded.

In the end the true determinant of the validity of any piece of experimental research is that it provides sufficient details so that any other "researcher" can replicate the experiment using the same methods and get the same results.

In a nutshell, to all those folks who have said this, that or the other product worked or did not work, I say to you: Prove It!

 

[eaglesaquarium]

I have found this thread quite interesting and I have a question for you guys. Why does the bacteria have to be refrigerated in the first place? Doesn't bacteria live in all temperatures? I can see if you have to chill it once it's opened,(like soy milk or something) so that it doesn't go bad but why does it need to arrive in cold packs? Also, if keeping it cold preserves the bacteria, wouldn't it die off as soon as you put it into your tank water which would be much warmer than fridge temperature? I'm just curious as to what your thoughts are.

Something else I would like to mention is this: Science can't explain everything. Sometimes things happen or work or just ARE. Take Homeopathy for one example; doctors and scientists will tell you that there is no evidence that it works but when you look at all the people and animals it's helped, you have to consider that there is something to it which cannot be measured by science but can only be judged on the individuals outcome.

Thanks for reading

Well, there are a few things involved in this question. I will deal with the bacteria first. The refrigeration question is easy to answer. The bacteria prefer warmer temperatures, but at the higher temperatures, they run a higher metabolism. The higher metabolism requires fuel (ammonia and oxygen) to keep them alive. The refrigeration traditionally keeps the bacteria in a much slower state of metabolism, and therefore, they can survive longer without any additional food/oxygen source. The newer products claim that they don't refrigeration because they have found a way to have the bacteria in some sort of a shelf stable suspended animation or some sort of thing.



The homeopathy issue is a whole different ball of wax. Long story short, the mind has tremendous influence on many things. Science doesn't have all the answers, but the role of science is to investigate things, and try to find a way to explain them. It's not always easy, and sometimes it takes a long time. BUT science has discovered what the bacteria that do this job are. They have proven that using mature media does work to shorten the duration of a cycle. So, the next logical step in the sequence is to find a way to cultivate that bacteria and be able to bottle it and ship it. Maybe that's not attainable yet with our current understanding of the bacteria, but products exist that claim that they have figured out how to do it. Isn't incumbent on a few individuals to test the products and report back their findings? Wouldn't it be nice to help folks who are looking to get fish to not have to wait 6 weeks or more to safely add them to the tank? We shall see.

 

[KISSfn]

I have found this thread quite interesting and I have a question for you guys. Why does the bacteria have to be refrigerated in the first place? Doesn't bacteria live in all temperatures? I can see if you have to chill it once it's opened,(like soy milk or something) so that it doesn't go bad but why does it need to arrive in cold packs? Also, if keeping it cold preserves the bacteria, wouldn't it die off as soon as you put it into your tank water which would be much warmer than fridge temperature? I'm just curious as to what your thoughts are.

Something else I would like to mention is this: Science can't explain everything. Sometimes things happen or work or just ARE. Take Homeopathy for one example; doctors and scientists will tell you that there is no evidence that it works but when you look at all the people and animals it's helped, you have to consider that there is something to it which cannot be measured by science but can only be judged on the individuals outcome.

Thanks for reading

My experience with Dr. Tim's One and Only is that it is shipped with cold packs to create the false illusion that what you have wasted your time and money on is actually alive and viable. I think it is generally accepted that if something is alive it needs some sort of special care. Plus they can charge you extra for expedited shipping. Unfortunately what was actually in the bottle did absolutely nothing! For the benefit of Google searchers out there....."Dr. Tim's One and Only does not do what it claims to do"!
I know when I purchased my latest test subject.....Fritz Zyme's Turbo Start 700.... I felt a little more hopeful when I saw it was kept in a refigerator when I bought it and very carefully wrapped to "survive" the trip home. Human nature or excellent marketing. We shall see....
I absolutely agree that science cannot explain everything! Sometimes stuff happens and of course there is always divine intervention for some....

 

[ian]

TwoTankAmin, if you read back (carefully), you will see that i didn't ever imply your statement, you have implied this...I know you have massive faith in this product, as i have carefully read your post's on this product in the past, as you have made it quite clear that you believe in this product. I'm struggling to find the actual research done at the home of Sealife, i can find a couple of 'curators' saying it's a great product, and i have found a graph with some stuff on. If you can find it i shall read it . I know Dr Tims research on bacterias is great and i fully understand what he has done for the hobby. I also have an open mind when it comes to science, but i just cannot believe that these products work. In Europe (i'm sure its the same in the states?), but EU law loosely states that Bacterias have to be alive when leaving production. When i did my dissertation, i did it on live yogurt and those drinks that claim to make you feel better by making gut flora a better place. The main flaw was the EU law regarding the actual half life of the live yogurt. It was negligible from a bottle of Yacult, after 24hrs. The same law covers these products. Shame really, because it would save us all a lot of time and effort.

ianho- can you please provide evidence that Sea Life Aquariums own any part of Dr. Hovanec's businesses or processes as you have stated in this thread.

 

[drobbyb]

You guys are beating an apparently dead horse here. It would be nice to have a bb product that works, and the research should continue. Until they make it "idiot proof" the products will still get a bad rap. Bio-Spira (the refrigerated kind) took care of that plain and simple. The only directions were to add to the tank AS you were adding fish. All you had to do was pour it in, and there was no way to overdose since more bacteria would simply lead to an initial stronger response followed by the die off of the extra bacterial population.

These shelf stable bb products either have the wrong species of bacteria (which would require the constant dosing of a particular product to maintain a "safe" environment for your fish) or the instructions are not clear enough for the average fishkeeper to follow correctly. MILLIONS of these products have been sold and used on faith that they would work. The manufacturers are inundated with angry emails and are protected by high priced lawyers and indemnity policies. They CAN claim ANYTHING they want, and get away with it. There are many many variables involved here, any of which they could claim caused the product not to work. The only response I have heard from the manufacturer is that peopld must have done it wrong.

Sounds like standard corporate practices to me. It's very hard to prove since Dr. Tim has done so much research and has had a little success.

You want a surefire head start to your tank, get donated media. Some things ARE just too good (currently) to be true, no matter how much we want them to be true.

I've done some experiments on my own, and my results seem to mirror the general consensus: These products are a waste of money, however they merit further research.

 

[KISSfn]

I can not keep silent any more.

I would not consider anything said in this thread by kissfn to have any scientific validity at all. There are many other totally false and undocumented statements being made by a number of other posters as well.

ianho- can you please provide evidence that Sea Life Aquariums own any part of Dr. Hovanec's businesses or processes as you have stated in this thread.

eagle you wrote:

The nitrifying bacteria in "Turbo Start" are not the same as "Biospira" (Nitrospira), but instead a different type that does the same thing (converts nitrite to nitrate) called nitrobacter.

The reasearch by Dr. Hovanec in 1998 would seem to have proven this is incorrect in reference to aquariums.

Hovanec, T. A., L. T. Taylor, A. Blakis and E. F. DeLong. 1998. Nitrospira- Like Bacteria Associated with Nitrite Oxidation in Freshwater Aquaria. Applied and Environmental Microbiology Vol. 64, No. 1: 258-264.

Abstract: Oxidation of nitrite to nitrate in aquaria is typically attributed to bacteria belonging to the genus Nitrobacter which are members of the alpha subdivision of the Proteobacteria. In order to identify bacteria responsible for nitrite-oxidation in aquaria, clone libraries of rRNA genes were developed from biofilms of several freshwater aquaria. Analysis of the rDNA libraries, along with results from denaturing gradient gel electrophoresis (DGGE) on frequently sampled biofilms, indicated the presence of a putative nitrite-oxidizing bacteria closely related to the genus Nitrospira. Nucleic acid hybridization experiments with rRNA from biofilms of freshwater aquaria demonstrated that Nitrospira-like rRNA comprised nearly 5% of the rRNA extracted from the biofilms during the establishment of nitrification. Nitrite-oxidizing bacteria belonging to the alpha Proteobacteria subdivision (e. g., Nitrobacter spp.) were not detected in same samples. Aquaria which received a commercial preparation containing Nitrobacter species did not show evidence of Nitrobacter growth and development but did develop substantial populations of Nitrospira-like species. Time series analysis of rDNA phylotypes on aquaria biofilms by DGGE, combined with nitrite and nitrate analysis, showed a correspondence between the appearance of Nitrospira-like bacterial ribosomal DNA, and the initiation of nitrite oxidation. In total, the data suggest that Nitrobacter winogradskyi and close relatives were not the dominant nitrite-oxidizing bacteria in freshwater aquaria. Instead, nitrite oxidation in freshwater aquaria appeared to be mediated by bacteria closely related to Nitrospira moscoviensis and Nitrospira marina.
hovanecAEM_Jan98

If anybody wants to do anything close to a scientific study of this subject you will need to keep a journal which provides daily readings of:
1. Water temperature.
2. pH level.
3. Ammonia level.
4. Nitrite level.
5. Nitrate level.

There should be no live plants nor any cycled material in the tank(s) as these will both interfere with results and thus invalidate them. A base level readings for the tank should be taken when it is set up.

In addition, information on the brand and quantity of any dechlor added should be recorded with dosing details included..
The type and manufacturer of all test kits or digital meters used should be recorded.
The type and dosing for any ammonia added or the presence or addition of fish should also be recorded with details.
The amount of any water changes done and if done, the new water going in should have its parameters recorded before it is added.

The specific bacterial addivte should be named. Under what conditions it was in when purchased ( ie refrigerated, in a temperature controlled environment etc etc.) The packaging date and lot number and expiration date should also be recorded. The dates/times for everything done should also be recorded.

In the end the true determinant of the validity of any piece of experimental research is that it provides sufficient details so that any other "researcher" can replicate the experiment using the same methods and get the same results.

In a nutshell, to all those folks who have said this, that or the other product worked or did not work, I say to you: Prove It!

I'm not here to earn an honorary Doctorate from Harvard based on my skills of conducting a scientific study of bottled bacteria. I did what Dr. Tim states in the video you posted. He wants regular people to try his product and see if it works. I don't doubt the following: Dr. Tim has a PHD in microbiology, discovered the bacteria that convert ammonia to nitrites, those that convert nitrites to nitrates, holds patents for these bacteria, has published his scientific results and helped major aquariums cycle their tanks. He states in that video that within 5 or 6 days or faster after adding his product, by a non scientific regular aquarium owner, the tank is cycled. In the graph at the end of the video it shows ammonia levels that peak at 0.5mg/l for 2 days and drop to 0 while nitrite never rises above 0. I bought his product, lot #07011, Best by date: March 2012, shipped next day air packed in chill packs and followed the directions. Don't you think I wanted it to work? In the video he states a person does not purchase a dog kennel only to keep it empty for weeks without being able to put a dog in it. So, he sells his product to quickly establish a bio filter because most people are not willing to wait weeks to add fish to their new expensive aquarium. I tried his product, ammonia levels did not drop to 0 after 2 days or 13. Ammonia levels were 1mg/l and did not drop. I tried Dr. Tim's One and Only and it does not do what he states it will do. I have my proof. The only false statements made are from Dr. Tim.

 

[Caprichoso]

Anybody have any thoughts on Seachem Stability? I keep hearing about the same two products. I have used Seachem for my last 5 tank set ups and I feel like the product has worked. I did a fish in cycle for all tanks, adding the fish within the week. I usually only add about 50% of the fish that I want from the start up. I always wait 2 weeks, then start doing weekly water changes of 50%. I did not ever suffer any ammonia or fish loss due to new tank syndrome. I use de-chlorinated tap water. I used the product for about the first 10 days then stopped. I add the remaining fish after about 6 weeks. Seachem claims to have a 4 year shelf life from the date stamped on the bottle. It doesn't need to be refrigerated(so it says) but I do put it in the fridge because I used to buy Cycle and that's what it recommended. So I know many of you think that all these products don't work but then how can you explain my success with it for all 5 of my tanks in the last 5 years? Not to mention the 10+ years prior to this where I used Nutrafin Cycle? Can one person really be that lucky? I better buy a lotto ticket if that's the case. Sorry about the sarcasm, I just find it hard to believe that there is no value to these products especially when I have had continued success with the product. Although, I would really like to know for sure. Okay, I'm done , my apologies for keeping the thread going.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

I can not keep silent any more.

I would not consider anything said in this thread by kissfn to have any scientific validity at all. There are many other totally false and undocumented statements being made by a number of other posters as well.

ianho- can you please provide evidence that Sea Life Aquariums own any part of Dr. Hovanec's businesses or processes as you have stated in this thread.

eagle you wrote:

The nitrifying bacteria in "Turbo Start" are not the same as "Biospira" (Nitrospira), but instead a different type that does the same thing (converts nitrite to nitrate) called nitrobacter.

The reasearch by Dr. Hovanec in 1998 would seem to have proven this is incorrect in reference to aquariums.

Hovanec, T. A., L. T. Taylor, A. Blakis and E. F. DeLong. 1998. Nitrospira- Like Bacteria Associated with Nitrite Oxidation in Freshwater Aquaria. Applied and Environmental Microbiology Vol. 64, No. 1: 258-264.

Abstract: Oxidation of nitrite to nitrate in aquaria is typically attributed to bacteria belonging to the genus Nitrobacter which are members of the alpha subdivision of the Proteobacteria. In order to identify bacteria responsible for nitrite-oxidation in aquaria, clone libraries of rRNA genes were developed from biofilms of several freshwater aquaria. Analysis of the rDNA libraries, along with results from denaturing gradient gel electrophoresis (DGGE) on frequently sampled biofilms, indicated the presence of a putative nitrite-oxidizing bacteria closely related to the genus Nitrospira. Nucleic acid hybridization experiments with rRNA from biofilms of freshwater aquaria demonstrated that Nitrospira-like rRNA comprised nearly 5% of the rRNA extracted from the biofilms during the establishment of nitrification. Nitrite-oxidizing bacteria belonging to the alpha Proteobacteria subdivision (e. g., Nitrobacter spp.) were not detected in same samples. Aquaria which received a commercial preparation containing Nitrobacter species did not show evidence of Nitrobacter growth and development but did develop substantial populations of Nitrospira-like species. Time series analysis of rDNA phylotypes on aquaria biofilms by DGGE, combined with nitrite and nitrate analysis, showed a correspondence between the appearance of Nitrospira-like bacterial ribosomal DNA, and the initiation of nitrite oxidation. In total, the data suggest that Nitrobacter winogradskyi and close relatives were not the dominant nitrite-oxidizing bacteria in freshwater aquaria. Instead, nitrite oxidation in freshwater aquaria appeared to be mediated by bacteria closely related to Nitrospira moscoviensis and Nitrospira marina.
hovanecAEM_Jan98

If anybody wants to do anything close to a scientific study of this subject you will need to keep a journal which provides daily readings of:
1. Water temperature.
2. pH level.
3. Ammonia level.
4. Nitrite level.
5. Nitrate level.

There should be no live plants nor any cycled material in the tank(s) as these will both interfere with results and thus invalidate them. A base level readings for the tank should be taken when it is set up.

In addition, information on the brand and quantity of any dechlor added should be recorded with dosing details included..
The type and manufacturer of all test kits or digital meters used should be recorded.
The type and dosing for any ammonia added or the presence or addition of fish should also be recorded with details.
The amount of any water changes done and if done, the new water going in should have its parameters recorded before it is added.

The specific bacterial addivte should be named. Under what conditions it was in when purchased ( ie refrigerated, in a temperature controlled environment etc etc.) The packaging date and lot number and expiration date should also be recorded. The dates/times for everything done should also be recorded.

In the end the true determinant of the validity of any piece of experimental research is that it provides sufficient details so that any other "researcher" can replicate the experiment using the same methods and get the same results.

In a nutshell, to all those folks who have said this, that or the other product worked or did not work, I say to you: Prove It!

Buddy, you need to relax a little bit.


First, I am trying to prove it. The things that you are recommending be tested, are exactly what I will be measuring over the course of my cycle.

As I type this, my 10 gallon tank - which hasn't been used for 15 years is currently running to test that all the pieces are working properly. I have a heater (brand new), a sponge filter (brand new), Tap Water Conditioner (brand new) and a API Master Kit (brand new). I am going to be using SafeStart (brand new). All the brand new materials arrived at my house TODAY. Currently, I have dechlorinated the water at a rate twice as high as the recommended amount for chloramines, since they are present in my water. The filter is running and I am checking to get the temperature correct before I add the bacteria.


Secondly, you claim that the statement that I made is false. It is not false and the statement you highlighted from Dr. Tim is in no way in contradiction to what I wrote. Please reread it.

Dr. Tim showed that nitrospira is the dominant specie in a freshwater aquarium. I agree with that. What I said was that Turbo Start (from Fritz Zyme) does NOT contain that bacteria, it contains Nitrobacter, which IS a nitrifying bacteria, whether or not it is the DOMINANT species is irrelevant. It is a nitrifier. The last part of my statement said that Biospira did contain Nitrospira. There is no false statement in any of what I said there. I don't know if you misread it, or if you just don't understand the difference between a species of bacteria that nitrifies versus a species of bacteria that is dominant.


Finally, you say that we need to prove our skepticism. Well, have YOU proven that they do work in your tank? How did you do it? You are citing these various aquariums for testimonials, yet you are not citing YOUR OWN experience.



This thread was started by me in an attempt to get some quantifiable information for folks. I am looking to get a quick cycle. If SafeStart provides that, - great. If SafeStart does not provide that - so be it. I am not trying to prove them to be fakes, on the contrary, I am trying to prove that they can work. That would be my hope. If it doesn't happen, then I am willing to cut my losses, and finish the cycle as if it started from scratch without any additives.

Anybody have any thoughts on Seachem Stability? I keep hearing about the same two products. I have used Seachem for my last 5 tank set ups and I feel like the product has worked. I did a fish in cycle for all tanks, adding the fish within the week. I usually only add about 50% of the fish that I want from the start up. I always wait 2 weeks, then start doing weekly water changes of 50%. I did not ever suffer any ammonia or fish loss due to new tank syndrome. I use de-chlorinated tap water. I used the product for about the first 10 days then stopped. I add the remaining fish after about 6 weeks. Seachem claims to have a 4 year shelf life from the date stamped on the bottle. It doesn't need to be refrigerated(so it says) but I do put it in the fridge because I used to buy Cycle and that's what it recommended. So I know many of you think that all these products don't work but then how can you explain my success with it for all 5 of my tanks in the last 5 years? Not to mention the 10+ years prior to this where I used Nutrafin Cycle? Can one person really be that lucky? I better buy a lotto ticket if that's the case. Sorry about the sarcasm, I just find it hard to believe that there is no value to these products especially when I have had continued success with the product. Although, I would really like to know for sure. Okay, I'm done , my apologies for keeping the thread going.

Why would you be sorry about keeping it going? This is the thread that I hope will allow people to have different views on the viability of these products, and actually test them. I don't have an answer for you regarding either product. Do you have any logs on the ammonia, nitrite, etc. for those tanks on a daily basis? That would be really interesting to see.