Bacterial Additives...

[eaglesaquarium]

Day 18 evening update:

pH: 7.6 (dropping, I'm guessing due to higher nitrates), NH3: 0.25ppm, NO2: 0ppm, NO3: N/A, temp 85F


As with karawr, my ammonia is no longer dropping to zero in 12 hours (with 4ppm dosing). I'm so close to the qualifying week, and yet so far!

 

[OldMan47]

I am a bit less cynical about my LFS than WD, but not a whole lot. My own favorite LFS is also a sponsor to our club and really does their best to make things work for people. They are also in the business of making money, as any business really should be, but they have found it in their best interest to give passably good advice. They support our club by giving club member discounts and, if you can believe it, giving huge discounts to people who attend our club fund raiser auctions. What they have found, and I wish it were more common, is that by supporting the club they get regular returns of club members to buy things. They also have found that the return business of people who are not discouraged by losing their first stocking of fish means an ongoing income to them. As odd as it may seem, I think these guys are acting like hobbyists in the best sense of it.
Eagles, if you are that close, please check your testing technique. There is no way that I know of for the bacteria to simply stop growing when they are that close to processing your ammonia, unless you have the maximum number of bacteria that your media can support, which is not very likely. In that case I suspect that something about your technique is letting you read a value of ammonia that is simply not present.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Eagles, if you are that close, please check your testing technique. There is no way that I know of for the bacteria to simply stop growing when they are that close to processing your ammonia, unless you have the maximum number of bacteria that your media can support, which is not very likely. In that case I suspect that something about your technique is letting you read a value of ammonia that is simply not present.

Well, I am getting zeros for 24 hours testing, just not 12 hours. I will evaluate my procedure... It could be a remnant of ammonia in the syringe I am using to fill the test tube (its the same one I use to dose the ammonia, but I've been rinsing it in the tank when I dose to get as much ammonia into the tank as possible... I will try rinsing that out in the sink tonight - although my tap still has 0.25ppm NH3, but we'll see if that makes a difference.

 

[waterdrop]

I have always advocated just using totally separate syringes for those two functions, not because rinsing can't be effective but just because it makes things simpler. The concentrations we are measuring after all are parts per million, so a left over trace can be significant.

There is also the thing of compact fluorescent light sources to make a yellow result look greenish. We've had that problem before.

But most likely it's just time and patience as usual, both these bacterial species often sputter and sputter with little irregular blips and that is why you see so many fishless cycling threads where time drags out somewhere beyond the optimal or the expected - it's very very rare for the fishless cycler not to feel some frustration (wouldn't it be cool if we had a little "reporter" down on the cellular level? "OK, guys, three thousand baby cells this morning over in sector 3, lol.")

~~waterdrop~~

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Yeah, I wanted to get separate syringes, but when I bought the one I got it was the only one left... I'd rather have a smaller one for dosing the ammonia to be honest, so I will go to another pharmacy and see if I can find another one.

Perhaps that will help with the ammonia values... perhaps the bacteria don't like the pH dropping, perhaps they are tired of growing


I am going to do a big water change tonight to get the nitrates back into a readable range. (Besides, I could use the practice, and my plants will appreciate the nitrate rich water. Not that they need it, we've gotten 3 straight days of rain!).

 

[eaglesaquarium]

So I just got a new syringe, the only size I seem to be able to find is a 10mL syringe... the issue with that will be coming up shortly....




So, I was all excited to see double zeros on the 12 hour test tonight. I had my new syringe, any trace ammonia from my morning dose wouldn't be showing up and my ammonia readings would be zero for sure, right?

WRONG! Instead, the NH3 was 1.0ppm to 2.0ppm, and the nitrite was about 0.5ppm to 1.0ppm.


So, now it was time to figure out what happened... I thought back, when did I last top off the tank? Did I remember to dechlorinate properly?... The last time I topped off was Sunday. So, the dechlorinating couldn't be the culprit because that issue would have been manifested sooner. My nitrates were getting higher, and my pH was starting to drop drastically, maybe that could have caused the issue... That just doesn't feel right to me somehow. Perhaps the bacteria just got tired of doing what they need to to survive. Well, that's just ludicrous. So, that leads me to my hypothesis... I think I overdosed the ammonia this morning. I was in a bit of a rush this morning, and I didn't look as closely to the syringe as usual and just sort of eyeballed the syringe was at 1.5mL (for a 4ppm dose on the 10 US gallon tank). Well, thinking back, I remember that it was higher than normal, much closer to 2 mL than 1.5, and I probably dosed the tank up to 5 or almost 6 ppm (based on the calculator on this site).


Here are the steps I've taken: 75-80% water change... this was due anyway. I wanted to get the nitrates back down to a readable level.

I dosed the dechlorinator into the tank at a rate of 1.5 times the recommended value for the total volume of the tank - so I used 3mL of API Tap Water Conditioner. (Normal dose is 1mL for every 5 gallons). Then I temp matched the water - I missed a little and overshot the temp to 88F instead of 85F - this is something I am obviously going to take much better care in correcting when I have fish!

Anyway, post water change the parameters are: pH: 7.0, NH3: 0.5ppm, NO2: ~0ppm, NO3: ~40ppm, temp 88F


I will be testing the ammonia throughout the night to see if it starts to drop rapidly, as it should based on recent events... if not, then I must have screwed something else up. I will be dosing the baking soda soon, once the ammonia issue is sorted out.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Well, to update before heading to bed, as I had hoped, the ammonia has dropped over the last hour from 0.50 ppm, to 0.25ppm. So, it should be zero by morning, and I will be doubly careful not to overdose again tomorrow. I wish I had been able to get a smaller syringe than 10mL.. No excuse though, I screwed up, and need to be more careful. (The good news is that these learning experiences are happening WITHOUT fish in the tank!

 

[KISSfn]

Eagle, test your ammonia test! I just tested mine with Ace ammonia and it read 0!!! This whole time API is to blame in my case! The lot numbers were good but the contents weren't! My apologies to TwoTankamin, Dr. Tim Hovanec and all his defenders, Tetra and Fritz Pet Products and anyone I may have offended. API was the problem!!! Full credit to forum admin Tolak for suggesting my testing supplies may have been the culprit! Don't shoot the messenger.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Day 19,

Morning update: pH: 8.4, NH3: 0ppm, NO2: 0ppm, NO3: 40ppm, temp 82F




kissfn,

I don't think that's the issue. I've gotten all sorts of readings from my API test kit. Sorry to hear about your issue with the test kit, but I guess it's good to hear that your tank is cycled. (I'm not so sure that you need a mea culpa on the bottled bacteria. I don't think SafeStart worked for me. I'm still cycling... Phase 3 is taking some time!

 

[KISSfn]

I got ammonia readings ranging from 0.5 to 2 on my tank water. If the ammonia test fails testing Ace ammonia, how reliable can the other tests be? At least we can test the ammonia test with the ammonia we bought for our fishless cycles. Now I know for sure my test kit is useless. It couldn't hurt if you checked yours. I still think bottled bacteria is useless regardless. Better yet you should buy an Active filter from http/www.angelsplu...ltersSponge.htm and save yourself from all of the hassle. If I had found that site back in March I would have a lot more hair today!

 

[waterdrop]

eagle, don't forget that water changes -themselves- will often (not always) cause the bacteria to "pause" (often for just a day but sometimes for 2 days roughly) and I think when you were worrying about your slight backwards progress and doing the various things to mitigate the problem you may not have been taking this other detail into account. As expected, a day or two later they are back in to the pattern more or less where it left off.

I hate to say it (lest I am misunderstood) since you two guys (you and kiss) have been quite above average in effort and reporting but I would like to point out that your two cases have gradually worked their way into examples of why we "watchers" end up adding numbers to our "mixed results" mental tally. Do you see what I mean? We often see some promising details that can sometimes make us hopeful about the BBs but then again, even with strong efforts by individual beginner members, many individual cases devolve into a case that can only be counted as the BB either not working or having an unknown effect. Sometimes (eagle's case) the fishless cycling time period just takes the BB case into standard time territory, sometimes (kiss' case) the pitfalls of the mechanics of doing a fishless cycle get in the way of being able to count it as a clear data point one way or the other. Now you guys can join us as "watchers" with more understanding of why our attempt to understand about BBs seems to stretch out over years. I believe it might make sense to you how our "skeptical but open to continuing to watch" stance makes sense.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[eaglesaquarium]

I got ammonia readings ranging from 0.5 to 2 on my tank water. If the ammonia test fails testing Ace ammonia, how reliable can the other tests be? At least we can test the ammonia test with the ammonia we bought for our fishless cycles. Now I know for sure my test kit is useless. It couldn't hurt if you checked yours. I still think bottled bacteria is useless regardless. Better yet you should buy an Active filter from http/www.angelsplu...ltersSponge.htm and save yourself from all of the hassle. If I had found that site back in March I would have a lot more hair today!

Agreed. I would have done that if I had known about it at the time. BUT, since I didn't the bottled bacteria is supposed to be the next best thing. It doesn't really matter to me anymore. Once I have a cycled filter, I can use that whenever I decide to start a new filter going.


My tests have come back in the range of 0ppm up to 4ppm. (I haven't added more than that - knowingly - so I'm not surprised by these readings. To be honest, the readings are coming up as expected, except for the lack of double zeros at 12 hours.) I might try a test when I get home, but I'm not sure what dilution I will use. Maybe I'll do a 8ppm dilution as calculated by the bottle and adding additional water to a container, and see if that comes up as it should. Looks like I've got some math ahead of me!

 

[anon02]

Dont forget that the ammonia we use will gas off over time and this effect will be further magnified when the product is diluted with tank water .... catch 22

 

[eaglesaquarium]

That's ok... once these filters are "cycled" on the 10 gallon tank I am going to be moving them over to a 56 gallon tank (I'll be speaking with the LFS tonight to find out what the hold up is) and "re"cycle them for a larger bioload! The good news is that with such a large tank, I don't have to be quite as careful with dosing ammonia. An extra 0.5mL won't mean the difference between 4ppm and nearly 6ppm!


Also, I don't plan on putting all the fish in that tank at once. It is going to a much more gradual process, so even if about half of the ammonia evaporates rather than being processed by the bacteria, I will still have plenty of overhead for my tank. My first addition will be a shoal of 15 rasboras or tetras. Then I will add a second shoal 6 at a time. Then I'll add the corydoras, then the rams/apistos... This whole process will take about 6-12 months. So, I'm not overly concerned with ammonia gassing off. (I figure a slower stocking rate will help to really keep my son interested in the hobby, as I recall how exciting it was to go to a fish store and buy new fish! It's crazy how exciting that was to me, and I think it will be to him as well. Plus, it will give each fish a chance to acclimate itself to the surroundings, and gives me a chance to keep a close eye on things, including the plants.

 

[KISSfn]

I hate to say it (lest I am misunderstood) since you two guys (you and kiss) have been quite above average in effort and reporting but I would like to point out that your two cases have gradually worked their way into examples of why we "watchers" end up adding numbers to our "mixed results" mental tally. Do you see what I mean? We often see some promising details that can sometimes make us hopeful about the BBs but then again, even with strong efforts by individual beginner members, many individual cases devolve into a case that can only be counted as the BB either not working or having an unknown effect. Sometimes (eagle's case) the fishless cycling time period just takes the BB case into standard time territory, sometimes (kiss' case) the pitfalls of the mechanics of doing a fishless cycle get in the way of being able to count it as a clear data point one way or the other. Now you guys can join us as "watchers" with more understanding of why our attempt to understand about BBs seems to stretch out over years. I believe it might make sense to you how our "skeptical but open to continuing to watch" stance makes sense.

~~waterdrop~~

I lay all the blame of my problems squarely on API's defective, inaccurate test kit. The lot numbers on my kit were "good" according to API but the ammonia reagents inside must have been filled by a machine that was long overdue for a calibration surely in a third world country by woefully underpaid workers. I always enjoy reading your incredibly well thought out posts ~~waterdrop~~ and am glad to be invited to join the "watchers"!