Bacterial Additives...

[eaglesaquarium]

eagle, don't forget that water changes -themselves- will often (not always) cause the bacteria to "pause" (often for just a day but sometimes for 2 days roughly) and I think when you were worrying about your slight backwards progress and doing the various things to mitigate the problem you may not have been taking this other detail into account. As expected, a day or two later they are back in to the pattern more or less where it left off.

I hate to say it (lest I am misunderstood) since you two guys (you and kiss) have been quite above average in effort and reporting but I would like to point out that your two cases have gradually worked their way into examples of why we "watchers" end up adding numbers to our "mixed results" mental tally. Do you see what I mean? We often see some promising details that can sometimes make us hopeful about the BBs but then again, even with strong efforts by individual beginner members, many individual cases devolve into a case that can only be counted as the BB either not working or having an unknown effect. Sometimes (eagle's case) the fishless cycling time period just takes the BB case into standard time territory, sometimes (kiss' case) the pitfalls of the mechanics of doing a fishless cycle get in the way of being able to count it as a clear data point one way or the other. Now you guys can join us as "watchers" with more understanding of why our attempt to understand about BBs seems to stretch out over years. I believe it might make sense to you how our "skeptical but open to continuing to watch" stance makes sense.

~~waterdrop~~

Thanks for the insightful feedback. Yeah, I understand the water change can cause a pause, but I figure that is something that the bacteria are going to have to be able to deal with - after all, in a fish IN cycle, if the bacteria can't keep up with the ammonia, the fishkeeper is directed to do a water change . So, the DECADES of fish-in cycles means that the bacteria can cope with a water change. I on the other hand, can't cope with not being able to read the nitrate test, or having the nitrites go off the scale. I keep referencing a post by Dr. Tim Havonec on this forum where he mentioned that nitrospira prefers a nitrite concentration of 0.14ppm, rather than the 14ppm that nitrobacter seems to prefer. So, if we are looking to culture nitrospira and the nitrite reading goes "off the scale" > 5ppm, there is no way of telling whether it is 5 or 6 ppm, versus 10-15 ppm. Especially if the nitrite sits off the scale for any length of time. Continually dosing the ammonia back up just forces the nitrite spike even higher, which works against our goal of nitrospira as it starts to encourage nitrobacter.


I recognize that I am a newbie to all this. As such, I wouldn't contradict the advice of the wise counsel I have received from both you and OM47. However, I do question the logic of not doing a water change to keep the nitrite in the range of the test, which would help to keep the concentration in the preferred zone of nitrospira, rather than nitrobacter. Any delay that may be caused by the water change, I believe could be counteracted by keeping the bacteria we are seeking to grow happier than their competition.



I am going to look back over my log and see if there was a delay in the cycle caused by the first water change. And I will watch carefully the results after this most frequent water change.

I will mention that having completed two water changes, I have learned a few things about that process, which is probably far more valuable to me as a fishkeeper than having my cycle end a few days earlier. First, I bought a plastic tube that is 5/8" in diameter and found that the water is actually draining out too fast. I don't think I will be able to vacuum enough of my substrate before I will have removed the requisite water from the tank. So, I need a smaller opening for the tube. Secondly, I bought only a 5 foot length - what was I thinking?! It's not nearly long enough for what I am going to need! The tank will be off the ground about 3 feet, then its a two foot high tank, so the bucket would have to be raised up off the ground, but even so, I would only have about 1 foot of extra length, after the line goes up the side of the tank and then back down. I'm definitely going to need a longer hose for water changes. I've considered the python, but haven't seen one for a price that I am completely comfortable with just yet.



I relish the role of "watcher". This entire process fascinates me. My biggest issue is that everything is really happening behind the scenes and I am unable to get a visual of the events as they transpire. I am a physics guy by trade, mostly because the "experiments" that I always took the most joy in, were the ones where I could actually SEE the event taking place. This forum has been invaluable in my planning for my new tank, and I want to be able to offer support and help to others who are in need. (My novice advice certainly shouldn't be taken as expertise, and hopefully hasn't sent anyone in the wrong direction. Waterdrop, thank you once again for your thoughtful response.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Updating here is secondary to my big concern right now. See the unforeseen circumstances thread for more information. I can't type it out twice!



Something has happened with my cycle.

Day 20, 5/19/11 - 21:00 - pH: 8.2, NH3: 0.5-0.75ppm, NO2: ~1.0ppm NO3: N/A, temp 84F


This has not been a good two days in fishkeeping, and I don't even have fish yet!



I'm just sick right now. Absolutely sick.

 

[KISSfn]

Don't give up! We've invested too much time and money...

 

[LoriF]

Well, I left my nitrates test in the tube while I went off to work and by the time I got home the tube appeared to have darkened to the point of reading at least 20ppm. My experience with this test is very limited (to say the least), but what might that indicate? Am I not shaking enough? Is the nitrate level building while it sits there somehow? (that doesn't make sense to me) Does anyone know if the test can give such a false positive reading after sitting for a few hours?

I just got through reading some info on the API nitrate test. Someone asked the manufacturer about the quality of the test and they said that you have to follow the instructions to a T. Shake the hell out of bottle number 2 maybe even bang the bottom of the bottle on something and start shaking for a full 30 seconds. Then shake the test tube for a full minute to get an accurate reading. I can not find that thread or I would post it for you. Hope this helps

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Thanks LoriF. I was able to correct my testing of the nitrates.


Morning update:

Good news (well not bad news):
Day 21, 5/20/11 - 07:00 - NH3: 0ppm, NO2: 0ppm, ammonia dosed to 4-5ppm.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Evening update:

Day 21, 5/20/11 - 19:00 - pH: ~8.3, NH3: 0.25ppm, NO2: ~2.0ppm, NO3: 40-80ppm, temp 84F


Well, I might have actually overdosed the dechlorinator (when I topped the tank back off), not the ammonia, which would explain everything a little better. So, the N-bacs are slowed down, since I overdosed the dechlorinator, and that explains why the cycle slowed down instead of picking right back up again when the ammonia was correct.

That actually explains the slowing down of the cycle as well, after Day 13 or 14. I dechlorinated and topped off then too. I didn't think adding a little extra would be too bad. I did a very small top off here, and then a bigger one on late Monday.


So, I am feeling fairly confident about things actually. They are not going exactly the way I had hoped, but I am starting to piece everything together! (Mostly thanks to the input from experts!)


On a second note, I believe I have a plan for my large tank now. Again, it isn't ideal, but it is going to work. See the Unforeseen Circumstances thread for the update there.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Morning update:

Day 22, 5/21/11 - 07:00 - pH: N/A, NH3: 0ppm, NO2: 0ppm, NO3 :N/A, temp 84F

 

[waterdrop]

OK, so looking back at your first (log) post, it appears that you are now in to a pattern of dosing in the morning and having your evening test set be the "12Hr after dosing" test and then the next morning readings be the "24Hr after dosing" set of tests, right? (The way to make that clear to every one is to add a "12Hr" or "24Hr" item to the log line. It's one of those things that feels obvious to the fishless cycler but is not obvious to the multiple thread watchers, lol.)

It also appears to me that you are still clearly at the stage (Phase 3 of fishless cycling) where you are getting pretty reliable "double-zeros" at your 24-hour tests but are still seeing numbers at your 12-hour tests. The overall fishless cycle being under 30 days means this is still looking as if it may be quite a fast fishless cycle, although I would caution you that the business of little blips at the 12-hour test can sometimes go on and on seemingly forever and in the past has been very frustrating for some people.

I promise you though that eventually virtually every biofilter I've watched being fishless cycled has "stopped blipping" and finally dropped down to a rock-solid set of double-zeros that can pass the qualifying week and nearly always remains a rock-solid biofilter for fish. If you can tough it out it is a very good feeling, knowing how biofilters behave and having a confidence that you are caring for your fish with some real hands-on flexibility about your knowledge about the most important baseline things for them.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Thanks for the insight into the first post. I will make the necessary edit.



Secondly, my large tank has finlly come, and I am thinking of moving the filters over to that, so I may just fall back from phase three, because of the vastly different dosage of ammonia in the 56 gallon versus the 10 gallon. I was thinking of waiting to see if I get a double zero at 12 hours tonight, and rather than doing a qualifying week with the 10, just scale it up, as that was the original plan.


I can place the Penguin 350 on the side of the tank, but when I do that I can't have the top in place. Not a huge deal, during cycling but definitely a problem for the future. I am going to call Marineland today, and hope to be able to swap out the box of the 350 for a 200, and get a second box for a 200. They use the same media, so I won't actually lose much, if any thing in bacteria by making the switch over and I'll have the added benefit of being able to shut down one filter to "clean" it without having no filtration on the tank, so I can take my time and be thorough (and more importantly CAREFUL).

 

[waterdrop]

Switching tanks and filters part way through a fishless cycle is usually not a big deal. One of the lengthiest aspects of a fishless cycle is simply feeding and waiting through the weeks where the number of cells in the colonies is small and where thus the cell doubling doesn't produce very many more cells yet.

[The power of exponentiation over time of course is that those last doublings are huge, right? This also explains why mature filters (media packed with cell-loaded biofilm coatings) can recover very quickly from partial damage or can increase very quickly to handle added bioload (new fish additions) at least up to the limits place by the box size and media volume.]

So even though your initial 10G is small and needs a smaller set of colonies, you've already waited through one of the slower parts of the overall process and it really doesn't matter much what tank volume that was done at. Of course, the actual dividing and moving of media will introduce some delays (and even minor risks) because in general these static bacteria don't necessarily like being moved (although thankfully they are not nearly so sensitive as root-centric plants who decide to "melt" when their roots are disturbed or moved )... in fact, the vast majority of the time the media (with debris and bacteria) can be cut and prodded and moved and will hardly give notice of any problem - they might be right back on the job instantly or they might "pause" for a day or two but they nearly always then get back to doing what they always do (after all, they've presumably been at it much longer on the face of the earth than we have, lol.)

~~waterdrop~~

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Yeah, i figure the bacteria won't mind, although it will drastically change the results on my log, potentially. For anyone who's still following wondering if the bacterial additives help, it might actually make this a completely worthless endeavor. (But to be honest, it was probably far more interesting to me than anyone else. I did so many things that wouldn't make a lot of sense for most folks. Why would anyone put a 350 gallon per hour filter on a 10 gallon tank?! - as an example... plus add a second air pump driven sponge filter? It made sense to me in the long run because of the 56 gallon tank which was planned on coming in the future, and has now arrived.)



Sorry to anyone out there, but to be honest, this whole process was about getting a 56 gallon tank, and that has now happened. I can move the 350, heater over and see what happens there. I will leave the sponge filter in place in the 10 without the heater, just to see what happens with that. I don't have a second heater currently, so it will have to be warmed by the south facing window in that room to stay around 70 degrees or so. Obviously this will slow the process of bacteria growth, but that filter isn't really needed for quite some time.



The plan is to move the filter this evening (maybe sooner) and update the log accordingly. I'm guessing ammonia, etc. should actually drop rapidly, eh?

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Finally!


The 12 hour double zero has happened again! Just in time to move the filter over to the new tank, except....




After filling up the tank last night, I let it sit over night, and I found an interesting development. There was a orange-brown build up on the bottom of the tank. Apparently our tap water has some sort of mineral or metal in it. It looks like it might be a bit of rust from the pipes, but we aren't sure. We called our water company and they are going to test it on Monday. I'll wait to move over the filter until I know more about our water situation. I am going to have to syphon out the stuff from the bottom. BTW, if the anyone knows if excess iron in the water is a major concern for fish, I'd be happy to hear more about it.



BTW, I'll have my wife ask as many questions about our tap water as possible, so that we don't actually stock the wrong fish in our water. (I still haven't been able to determine what the hardness of our water is yet, but this makes me wonder...

 

[waterdrop]

Don't know eagle. Are you sure it's not diatoms? Have you had lights on? WD

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Don't know eagle. Are you sure it's not diatoms? Have you had lights on? WD

Yeah, I'm sure. My wife has seen it in the bottom of the toilet, and once or twice from the tub tap. And no, we haven't had any lights on. (I wish it were just diatoms.) I just don't think that diatoms could bloom from tap water in less than 12 hours. Furthermore, would they only bloom on the bottom of the tank, and move when the water was swished near by. My understanding of diatoms is that they are stuck to something, but this stuff gets moved around easily with a swish of your hand nearby.



Like I said, the water company is coming. We will find out soon what it is (hopefully).

 

[waterdrop]

Sounds like organic sediment from pipes that also has rust in it perhaps, seems like I've heard of this from some pipe systems, anybody else? WD