Asking About Other Fish Forums.

[Darkstar]

I wsa reading the recent question in the forum from someone asking whether there were any other good fish forums worth going to...
The reply from the moderator who dealt with that question was:

http/www.fishforum...tion=boardrules

"No promoting of other competing sites either in the forum, chat room or private message system. In the event of receiving such spam messages, please report the incident to a member of the moderating team."

While I think the O/P's question is a little odd as a quick google search would have shown plenty of forums, I don't think this falls under 'promoting other sites'.
I'm willing to bet that William set this site up as a resource for people interested in keeping fish and wanting to learn more. In which case, if that means someone expanding their knowledge on another site, which may deal with a more specific area and therfore more likely to yield an answer to a specific question which cannot be answered here, then I don't see a problem - in fact I think this should be done more often. After all the inital idea of this site was to help people further their knowledge in fishkeeping regardless of address of the page they are reading from.
I find it a little closed minded to not allow anyone to ask about other fishforums. I known plenty of people on this site be recommended to go over to planetcatfish to get an ID for their fish - it doesn't mean they're not coming back. In fact quite the opposite...I'd be much more inclined to stay with a forum which was happy to point me in another direction, i.e. another forum, to get the answer I need than try and keep me here by not sharing that information.

It's one thing someone starting a thread stating they've started a fish forum and does anyone want to join - that would fall under promotion - but asking if there's is a specific marine forum or another decent forum that they can attend as well as this one is hardly promoting. I myself am a member of about 6-7 fish forums - and i still come over to here regularly.

I don't expect anything to be done with this, I just think the answer given to the OP was il-thought out and answering his question would be no bad thing...it's one more member who knows where to come next time he/she needs a question answering.

Darkstar.

 

[Tolak]

Oh, you can ask, the little note & closing the topic was preemptive to someone posting a link to another site. Linking to other sites is something that is often discussed among the moderators, and is usually reserved for specialist forums that would be covering information that is either never discussed, or never discussed as in depth as is possible here.

That is why you will occasionally see links to forums with specialized information, but rarely to general tropical fish forums, as that same information can be found here.

I've often thought it would be nice if we could redirect members to other sites as needed, much as the employees of Macy's did in the move Miracale On 34th Street, where customers were sent to a competitor when the merchandise they were looking for is not available at Macy's. The difference being that merchandise, or information if you will, is available here, and this is real life, not a movie.

As far as being ill thought out, I would think it was quick & to the point, as I check on TFF on my way out the door to work every morning, and that topic was at the top if the recent topics. Running a bit late yesterday I did not have the chance to expand on my post, being a bit earlier today I can give you a reasonable explaination on why we do that, and where that post came from.

 

[Tolak]

Checking on the time, I thought it was morning, it was after work, got a call from the aunt with a house problem. Forum came first, go figure. Spent 3 hours at her house after that.

 

[Dan-CR4]

I myself can understand not linking to other forums as all we would get is people coming here to promote their own forums. As you said at the beginning of your post, google or bing is your friend for searching for other forums and if you look at most forum sites they all (well most) wont allow linking as all it does is get people spamming the forums saying join here, join there. Its just not fish forums that have these rules, im a member of loads of different forums and the ones that do allow linking having nothing but spammers and it degrades the site.

I myself joined 2 other fish forums before finding this one by using google and both them previous forum sites did not allow linking to other fish forum sites. I say no linking is a good idea. Mods are right on this one, they get my VOTE talking of voting, if you are in the UK dont forget to vote today.

 

[Darkstar]

I myself can understand not linking to other forums as all we would get is people coming here to promote their own forums. As you said at the beginning of your post, google or bing is your friend for searching for other forums and if you look at most forum sites they all (well most) wont allow linking as all it does is get people spamming the forums saying join here, join there. Its just not fish forums that have these rules, im a member of loads of different forums and the ones that do allow linking having nothing but spammers and it degrades the site.

I myself joined 2 other fish forums before finding this one by using google and both them previous forum sites did not allow linking to other fish forum sites. I say no linking is a good idea. Mods are right on this one, they get my VOTE talking of voting, if you are in the UK dont forget to vote today.

You completely miss my point....No-one is suggesting linking.

 

[OscarWilde]

I wsa reading the recent question in the forum from someone asking whether there were any other good fish forums worth going to...
The reply from the moderator who dealt with that question was:

http/www.fishforum...tion=boardrules

"No promoting of other competing sites either in the forum, chat room or private message system. In the event of receiving such spam messages, please report the incident to a member of the moderating team."

While I think the O/P's question is a little odd as a quick google search would have shown plenty of forums, I don't think this falls under 'promoting other sites'.

I asked the question because I value the opeinion of most members of this forum. Also, some of the smaller forums are harder to find and I thought there may be some hidden gems out there. I did not suggest pasting in links.

I agree with everything else that Darkstar said. I was going to post a similar email but assumed that it would recieve similar censorship. I cant be bothered to argue anymore but will say that I think there is a bit too much moderation and a few too many rules on here these days.

 

[simonas]

I myself can understand not linking to other forums as all we would get is people coming here to promote their own forums. As you said at the beginning of your post, google or bing is your friend for searching for other forums and if you look at most forum sites they all (well most) wont allow linking as all it does is get people spamming the forums saying join here, join there. Its just not fish forums that have these rules, im a member of loads of different forums and the ones that do allow linking having nothing but spammers and it degrades the site.

I myself joined 2 other fish forums before finding this one by using google and both them previous forum sites did not allow linking to other fish forum sites. I say no linking is a good idea. Mods are right on this one, they get my VOTE talking of voting, if you are in the UK dont forget to vote today.

You completely miss my point....No-one is suggesting linking.

I understand where Darkstar is coming from as I felt same when I read the reply but as Tolak says he was in a rush.

As it happens a google search will reveal more forums and if there is a species specific forum the OP wants well I'm sure we can help... after all there are snakehead, piranha marine forums etc which cater in more detail information that this site doesn't,
even though I join the species specific sites this is the only one I constantly use

 

[Dan-CR4]

You completely miss my point....No-one is suggesting linking.

I dont think I completely missed your point, all i was to referring to from your post was that you mentioned google, yes google would be the best way to find other forums. the rest of my post was just airing my views on asking or linking about other forums. If it sounded like anything else then im sorry i was not meaning it to sound like that.

Lets say, someone here was to ask the question "where can I find a specific forum that could help me out?", now some people would point them in the right direction, without adding a link but you would also get everyone who owns/runs a forum that is also a member here saying visit this/that forum, which is linking/spamming/promoting their own site, and there are members here who are admins or mods of other fish forums, so it could open up a whole can of worms promoting their own sites. As I say forums can get right out of control and you have to ask where will it all end, if these rules are not in place.

The only 2 things the admins/mods here could do, is 1. do what they have done in this point or 2. open these forums up completely to linking, if they do the latter then we would be flooded with spammers.

Im not missing points at all, im just saying that there has got to be rules on certain things, many other forums are run the same.

 

[Tolak]

Running across a topic such as this here is nothing new, and it is treated pretty much the same way every time.

"No promoting of other competing sites either in the forum…”

Which would mean, as stated, other general tropical fish forums. What happens next with a topic such as this is people post links to other forums. Either naming or linking is not allowed by the general rules. Closing it prevented this from occurring, as well as kept the topic from being removed due to these inevitable promotions.

I cant be bothered to argue anymore but will say that I think there is a bit too much moderation and a few too many rules on here these days.

This specific rule has been in effect for as long as I can remember. As this forum grows, and situations change, there will be rules covering specific sections and circumstances. This is to be expected. Rules and guidelines are constantly reviewed by the moderators, as things constantly change. This is in order to keep this forum in line with what the owner would like to see.

As far as too much moderation, we can probably best refer to the Merriam_Webster definition;

"To lessen the intensity or extremeness of"

Wiki also gives a more verbose definition, which would cover this forum quite well;

"Moderation is the process of eliminating or lessening extremes. It is used to ensure normality throughout the medium on which it is being conducted. Common uses of moderation include:

* Ensuring consistency and accuracy in the marking of student assessments.
* A moderator may remove unsuitable contributions from the website, forum or IRC channel they represent in accordance with their moderation system."

One of the first things I worked on when the owner of this forum made me administrator was to work out a set of moderator guidelines. This is part of the constantly reviewed rules and guidelines previously mentioned, and is an effective way of ensuring consistent & fair moderation. It not only makes sure there are none of the unwanted extremes in topics & posts, it also makes sure there are no extremes when dealing with these sort of topics & posts.

That means moderators have rules to follow, beyond what the members have to follow. Those rules do include the promotion of other forums.

I really do like these sort of topics, as it gives members some insight into how the forum is run, and why the moderators do things the way they do. We really do put a lot of thought into how things should be done here, almost to a fault. A good example would be the recently opened General Chat, looking back this section began serious discussion last July. Another reason I like these topics is it gives the moderators some insight into what the members are thinking and why, which often gives us guidance on moderating this forum.

 

[steelhealr]

At the risk of seeming to run to Tolak's side, I wish to simply re-emphasize that moderators DO make an effort to make sure that the rules of the forum are followed. No thread should be closed when a member is offered directions on how to find information on a question that cannot be answered here. Linking and promotion are not permitted. That may be a fine line sometimes, however, I think we have a great group of moderators here that make good decisions. In fact, frequently, we moderators will even discuss a single link or post to decide as a group whether it is appropriate to remove a link or leave it for the benefit of the member.

Case in point, my own situation. Prior to the growth of nano reefing, I left here to obtain expertise on this new area of the hobby. On returning, William set up a brand new section for us, the Nano Reef Forum and it took off. I returned here because I love the people on this forum (see fatheadminnow's post in this section.). It truly is a great forum to be a member of. I/we wanted to be able to provide additional information for our members. There are many other freshwater and saltwater forums on the internet. Each of them has something to offer. It comes down to where YOU want to call home.

Our members are free to come and go as they please. They are welcome to become experts in the field and then come home to us and share. They are free to instruct others where they might find information they are looking for. However, per the forum guidelines, we do not allow linking to other forums nor promotion of other sites as written into the Rules and Regs.

Now...I think I'll have a beer and re-read fatheadminnow's post. I like-ee.

SH

 

[OldMan47]

I must chime in on this topic. When I first became a MOD, I had a link in my signature area to another forum site. Although it was a specialist site with some advanced information, I am a livebearer enthusiast, I was asked to remove that link when becoming a MOD. As a MOD, the idea is that I should not even begin to give the impression of violating one of our rules. I am also a member of several other forums and find that external links are common on some forums and banned on other forums. One of the liveliest forums that I go to has a very open policy regarding external links and the MODs and admin there often post such links themselves. It is not a high traffic forum like this one and serves a narrow group of people, so external links make it possible for them to address wide ranging topics. I do find that they end up having links to very informative sites that people might hesitate to link with on this forum, so the rule here is a mixed blessing when it comes to providing information to our members. Just adding another perspective.

 

[Big_eyes]

Sounds like someones hoping to sell the forum off for a bit of wonga once it gets noticed.

Personally I think the rule and a few others on this forum are quite ridiculous and only make the moderators job harder by having to remove or edit more than is necessary. But then I think the first line of this post sums up the reasons perfectly.

 

[Bignose]

Sounds like someones hoping to sell the forum off for a bit of wonga once it gets noticed.

Personally I think the rule and a few others on this forum are quite ridiculous and only make the moderators job harder by having to remove or edit more than is necessary. But then I think the first line of this post sums up the reasons perfectly.

It's like the world's slowest payout, then. The forum has been up for a very long time. I just don't see how selling a fish forum is ever really going to payout. We don't even take in money from advertisements, where is the value?

This rule is pretty simple. If you ran an independent coffee store, would you actually answer someone who came up to your counter and asked "Where is the nearest Starbucks?" Or, if you are selling something on eBay, would you answer questions about someone else's ad? Especially if they were asking "where can I get the same item cheaper than what you want for it?"

Is it really that hard to understand why we don't allow people to use this forum's webspace to shill for a different place that is a direct competitor? Williams is kind enough to pay for a server, forum software, etc. to keep this place running. He didn't do all that just to be a space to advertise for other fish forums. If that was his goal, he could spend his money buying advertisements for the other forums.

Also, it is not like every link is banned. We just don't want links pointing directly to what is in effect our competition. Links pointing to sites about fish, but that aren't in direct competition are fine, and encouraged if they are informative.

And, finally, I think that it is important to say that we do discuss the rules and their interpretations quite a lot. The mods have their discussions kept from the general membership, but we also have rules discussions in this section, too. The rules aren't just randomly pulled from a hat. The rules are in place to protect what we have here, and are in place to ensure that we have the kind of forum we want it to have. And, I hope that you don't read the following in a rude way, because it is not how I mean it to be (hard to get correct tone in a post on a forum): but, there is nobody forcing you to be here. If you don't care for the rules, then you are free to join a different forum that has rules you like better, or to start your own forum and set whatever rules you want.

We set and enforce our rules to try to have the best family-friendly tropical fish forum on the Internet. Is it the best? Well, that's a matter of one's opinion. I like it here. That's why I've stayed for as long as I have, and why I volunteer my time as a mod. Some may not like it here, and that's fine. People are always coming and going. But, all in all, I think that we do a pretty good job.

 

[Jenste]

I actually agree with the mods - -
rules need to be put in place to keep a certain amount of order and respect in place

growing up, we all thought that many of our parents rules were over controlling...but they were set in place by our parents for good reasons.

even today, some of societies laws seem overly restrictive and harsh....but they are there for a reason.


rules are generally formed AFTER something has happened that needs to be prevented from happening again...

while I do not always agree with the rules, I agree with the fact that it is probably there for a very valid reason

 

[Big_eyes]

Sounds like someones hoping to sell the forum off for a bit of wonga once it gets noticed.

Personally I think the rule and a few others on this forum are quite ridiculous and only make the moderators job harder by having to remove or edit more than is necessary. But then I think the first line of this post sums up the reasons perfectly.

It's like the world's slowest payout, then. The forum has been up for a very long time. I just don't see how selling a fish forum is ever really going to payout. We don't even take in money from advertisements, where is the value?

This rule is pretty simple. If you ran an independent coffee store, would you actually answer someone who came up to your counter and asked "Where is the nearest Starbucks?" Or, if you are selling something on eBay, would you answer questions about someone else's ad? Especially if they were asking "where can I get the same item cheaper than what you want for it?"

Is it really that hard to understand why we don't allow people to use this forum's webspace to shill for a different place that is a direct competitor? Williams is kind enough to pay for a server, forum software, etc. to keep this place running. He didn't do all that just to be a space to advertise for other fish forums. If that was his goal, he could spend his money buying advertisements for the other forums.

Also, it is not like every link is banned. We just don't want links pointing directly to what is in effect our competition. Links pointing to sites about fish, but that aren't in direct competition are fine, and encouraged if they are informative.

And, finally, I think that it is important to say that we do discuss the rules and their interpretations quite a lot. The mods have their discussions kept from the general membership, but we also have rules discussions in this section, too. The rules aren't just randomly pulled from a hat. The rules are in place to protect what we have here, and are in place to ensure that we have the kind of forum we want it to have. And, I hope that you don't read the following in a rude way, because it is not how I mean it to be (hard to get correct tone in a post on a forum): but, there is nobody forcing you to be here. If you don't care for the rules, then you are free to join a different forum that has rules you like better, or to start your own forum and set whatever rules you want.

We set and enforce our rules to try to have the best family-friendly tropical fish forum on the Internet. Is it the best? Well, that's a matter of one's opinion. I like it here. That's why I've stayed for as long as I have, and why I volunteer my time as a mod. Some may not like it here, and that's fine. People are always coming and going. But, all in all, I think that we do a pretty good job.

I aren't saying you don't do a good job, far from it. I'm just saying that sometimes the rules in general go a bit too deep and take up more mod time than is really necessary. Yes it's a good forum, yes it's family friendly and yes it's a pain in the behind when someone tries to pm you a link to something/somewhere and it is blocked out with symbols.


I understand where your coming from with certain url's being disallowed but as for 'competitive sites'(other forums) what odds does it make if the forum is not planned to be sold or create income? Which, yes is possible as any popular and functional forum is always worth something once it's big enough. If the forum is a good place, then there's no need to worry about people leaving. I've looked on quite a few fish forums in the past and it is very easy to spot lots of the users here on most of the other forums at the same time. I got told by one member not to tell anyone they were a big poster elsewhere in the fear that they would be banned