Ask Questions About Cycling

[Phaneric]

 

 Ammonia, from "decomposing" (plants and fish poo -hehe), turns to nitrite, which turns to nitrate? So we are trying to level out the amount made so that there is a balanced/healthy cycle.. yes?.. - Don't laugh.. I just had my first child. She's 7months, and is absorbing my brain 

 
I know exactly what you mean.  It's true - babies absorb brains!  Happened to me too.
 
The idea is to establish a colony of bacteria that will convert ammonia into nitrate, and another colony of bacteria that will convert nitrite into nitrate.  Then you do regular water changes to remove the nitrate and keep the tank in balance - ta-da!
 
Sadly the Nutrafin cycle is unlikely to live up to its claims.  I would advise that you follow the fishless cycling guide http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/421488-cycling-your-new-fresh-water-tank-read-this-first/ and use an ammonia source to cycle the tank.
 
There is quite a large jump in pH from your tap to your tank water.  Mine increases from about pH 7.6 from the tap to 8.2 due to natural dissipation of CO2 but yours is quite a bit more severe.  Take a sample of tap water and leave it to stand overnight, then test the pH.  This will tell you the natural pH of your tap water after CO2 has dissipated.  Any difference between that and your tank pH is due to something increasing the hardness of water in your tank.
 
The best way to oxygenate your water is to direct the filter flow up towards the surface to cause a ripple.  If the surface is sufficiently agitated then you shouldn't need an airstone, although it won't do any harm if you want one.
 
Hope this helps,
Daize
 

Does the fact that my tap water is hard account for the jump in pH? I thought about using purified water for any further water changes, but didn't want to buy walmart out of it's water supply to do the initial filling of my tank. lol
I like the way you broke that down, but am curious. Is nitrate used by anything in the tank? Do the plants use it? Or do the small water changes help virtually eliminate it or lower the levels so that the cycle can continue stably?
My filter may be agitating the surface just fine then. It's flowing beautifully along the top at an almost complete horizontal angle and allowing for a stream like flow. I thought that it needed more aggressive agitation - involving bubbles and splashing (the fun stuff) lol
Darn this Nutricycle! I will go ahead and use it for tomorrows "dose", because that's all I have left of it
So I technically haven't even started the cycle! I'm laughing at myself.
Now I have to ask.. based on my tanks stats what amount of ammonia do I need to add to begin properly cycling?
Thanks so much for your kind response, btw!
 -Phan.

 

[daizeUK]

Yes plants can absorb nitrate.  They will not absorb very much though unless you are also supplying them with carbon and other fertilizers.  In a high-tech fully planted tank the absolute maximum nitrate that plants will absorb is around 20ppm per week.
 

I like the way you broke that down, but am curious. Is nitrate used by anything in the tank? Do the plants use it? Or do the small water changes help virtually eliminate it or lower the levels so that the cycle can continue stably?

 
No - the water changes I was referring to are to keep nitrates at low levels for livestock after the cycle has completed.  Normally there is no need to perform water changes during the cycle itself.  Nitrates do not affect the cycle itself (unless they get ridiculously high - but there should be no need for you to worry about that!)
 
The ideal safe value of nitrate for your fish is usually recognised as around 40ppm or less.  In practice they can often tolerate concentrations of up to 80ppm with no apparent ill effects but <40ppm is a good target to aim for.
 
Hard tap water and high pH often go hand in hand.  It's quite common for hard tap water to have high pH (like mine).  It doesn't account for the jump in pH from tap to tank though.  Some of the jump will be due to CO2 dissolved in your tap water but such a large jump might indicate that something inside your tank is hardening the water even more, such as a rock or ornament.  High pH is not a bad thing in itself, although a pH of 8.2 might restrict your choice of fish somewhat, but you want to be sure first that nothing in the tank is artificially raising the pH.
 
The amount of ammonia you add depends on which brand you use.  Your target is 3ppm ammonia.  Use the calculator at the bottom of this page http/www.fishforums.net/aquarium-calculator.htm and enter the volume of your tank, a Desired Level of 3ppm ammonia and the % of ammonia as stated on your particular brand of ammonia and the calculator will tell you how much to add! 

 

[daizeUK]

Just an afterthought - I noticed in your other posts you mentioned having a previous tank.  If you have another tank with a mature filter then you can use some of the filter material to introduce bacteria and kickstart your new cycle.  Do you still have fish in the other tank?

 

[Phaneric]

Just an afterthought - I noticed in your other posts you mentioned having a previous tank.  If you have another tank with a mature filter then you can use some of the filter material to introduce bacteria and kickstart your new cycle.  Do you still have fish in the other tank?

Well, about that! It was a bowl.. actually. My inspiration for this wonderful hobby really. I owned a beautiful Betta -in a 2 gal bowl, and unfortunately.. Because of my ignorance/lack of knowledge concerning fish, and misinformation from "pet" stores, I essentially murdered him. He had about 2 gals of room, but no heater and no room for a filter forcing me to do 100% water changes every 3-4 days. When he became ill I dug deep to find out how to get him back to health and that's when I discovered "I" had been the cause of his downfall. I immediately began treating him with natural aids, and bought him a larger tank - filtered and heated- in hopes to redeem myself. He didn't make it, and I felt horrible. Fish are living creatures and deserve just as much respect as any other living thing. I decided to make myself more familiar and educate myself in fish. I enjoy there company, and the beauty they bring in a home! So, yeah. I want to give a nice home to some fish who might otherwise have to endure the same fate as many other fish caught in the web of ignorance.

Sorry for the rant!
Now, pleeeaaassseee don't tell me that the beautiful lava rock that I purchased is the cause of the hardness? Maybe the petrified drift wood? Then I have freshwater aquarium sand as a substrate. When I tested the Betta's water (before he passed) it was with the API "5 in 1 test strips". I've heard strips aren't worth trusting, but the hardness was actually worse and I only had the two plants and the substrate. Maybe the sand is the cause? Oh boy... lol
I'll take some pics of the tank to show what I have and maybe get some names for the mysterious plants I bought. lol
-Phan.
Here's my set up.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Take a sample of tap water and leave it sit in a glass overnight. Check the pH after 24 hours, this will tell you what the real levels are of your tap water. Gasses in the tap water can effect pH, but will gas off and the water will reach it's 'natural' pH after about 24 hours. Decorations can influence pH though, so the rock could be the cause.

Are you adding an ammonia source to simulate the fishy poo? If not, then you are not 'cycling' the tank at all.

 

[Phaneric]

Take a sample of tap water and leave it sit in a glass overnight. Check the pH after 24 hours, this will tell you what the real levels are of your tap water. Gasses in the tap water can effect pH, but will gas off and the water will reach it's 'natural' pH after about 24 hours. Decorations can influence pH though, so the rock could be the cause.
Are you adding an ammonia source to simulate the fishy poo? If not, then you are not 'cycling' the tank at all.

No, I will be adding the ammonia later today. I thought the product I purchased started the cycle, but it needs fish, and I want to do this fishless.
I will be sure to set out some water for 24hrs and test it. My rant has been running two days now with just what you see in the tank the bacterial additive and this morning it was quite cloudy. I would think it's a result from the bacteria thats essentially just sitting in the tank.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

The cloudiness is normal at this stage.  Its heterotrophic bacteria consuming little bits in the tank.  It will clear shortly.

 

[Phaneric]

The cloudiness is normal at this stage.  Its heterotrophic bacteria consuming little bits in the tank.  It will clear shortly.

Oh, good! I'm so grateful for all you fish savvies who are guiding me.

 

[Phaneric]

Okay, I need someone to assist me in finding out how much ammonia to add. The converter confused me, and I wasn't sure I even did it right. The tank is 30x12x18

 

[Phaneric]

Soooo.. I've been away from home from 4am-4pm. I walk in the door and not only is the tank cloudy (which I was told is normal, even though I have not yet started cycling my tank), but it's turned a distinct "tea" color from the petrified drift wood that I placed in there the night before last. My plants have also drooped dramatically. I made sure to soak it (the drift wood) prior to adding it to the tank per the instructions (until the water ran clear or a light tea color). Obviously that was pointless... and again I'm here wondering if this is going to greatly effect my water quality, or if it too shall pass? lol
I just placed a small amount of tap water into one of the API master kit vile's to sit for 24hrs (lid off) so that I can test its true pH. I'm quite anxious to get my cycle started, but wonder if I should wait until after solving these little set backs. (jump in pH hardness, plants, water discoloration)
-Phan.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Couple quick things:
 
Discolored water... that's 'tannins' from the wood.  That's actually a BENEFIT to nearly all the fish in the hobby, so it WILL affect your water chemistry, but in a GOOD way.  Although it does lower pH.
 
If you don't like it, just add activated carbon to your filter... it will remove the tannins, and is one of the few reasons to have carbon in your filter.
 
 
Plants drooping - many plants will 'melt' when introduced to a new tank.  Mostly because they are grown emmersed (out of water) prior to sale, and are acclimating to being immersed (underwater).  The reason is that most plants that are emmersed have different leaves than when it is immersed.  What plants are they?  From the picture, it looks like a cryptocoryne of some sort in the back.  Those are notorious for melting.  Don't remove the plants.  It should send out new leaves fairly soon.
 
 
Ammonia dose... based on your dimensions, and substracting a bit for substrate and decor, I'd say you have about 25 gallons of water in the tank.  Which means a 9.5% ammonia solution would require 3ml of ammonia added to the tank for 3ppm.
 
The last thing I will leave you with is this:  Patience is the key to proper fishkeeping.

 

[Dandx13]

Hey everyone, I have two established tanks (10 and 20 gallon) and decided to go big. I bought a 125 Gallon High tank with a nice stand for a good price. The previous owner had cleared out the entire tank 3 days before giving it to me and didn't keep any water in it. So i assumed all the bacteria would be dead. To jumpstart the process i added an extra Marineland penguin 200 (that had been on my 20 gallon tank for a few weeks) and some decor and driftwood from the two tanks. Also, I added a SunSun HW304-B canister filter. 
 
Actual Question: My cycle is going just fine but I have one concern. I have recently had my ammonia levels drop off and nitrites spiked along with nitrates. My concern is that my Nitrates are off the charts at about 160ppm. Should I do a large water change before my next "maintenance" feeding of ammonia? ( I don't want to stall my cycle)

 

[Gruntle]

High nitrate will not stall your cycle (I think), high nitrite will. 160ppm sounds very high though, how much and how often have you added ammonia since starting your cycle? With a number that big, I'd assume you may have added more ammonia than is necesary.
 
3 days without water would probably not have killed off your bacteria, but then again if the filter media was dry the bacteria may have gone dormant (but should re-animate fairly soon).
 
Can you give a run-down of what (and when) you've done so far, and the exact levels of ammonia and nitrite?

 

[Dandx13]

I received the tank with no water but had a semi-cycled filter of my own. I added ammonia once to 4 ppm and saw some nitrites after ammonia dropped. Then i dosed it back to 3.5ppm and saw 5+ nitrites and about 80ppm nitrates by the time ammonia went back to zero. After that ive only dosed it to 1ppm and then posted this. I have only had this tank for about 12 days so the bacteria must have stayed alive
 
should i do a water change still to get the nitrates down?
 
My current levels are:
Ammonia: .5ppm
Nitrite:       5ppm
Nitrate:     160ish ppm (it is pretty red but the scale jumps from 80 to 160 ppm for API test kit)
 
I dosed to 1ppm ammonia about 4 hours ago

 

[Gruntle]

I think you're about here in the cycle:
 
"After the maintenance feeding, whenever you test and ammonia is .25 ppm or lower and nitrite is clearly under 1 ppm, it is time to add a full ammonia dose again and test in 24 hours.
If ammonia and nitrite both read 0 ppm, you are cycled. Do a large water change, be sure the water is the proper temperature, and add fish. The odds are this will not be the case quite this soon.
 
If ammonia and nitrite do not both read zero, continue to test daily. Whenever ammonia is again at .25 ppm or less and nitrite is clearly under 1 ppm, add the full amount of ammonia and test in 24 hours. Follow this pattern of testing and adding until both tests read 0 ppm. The cycle should not take much longer to be completed."
 
 
So wait until your nitrite drops to clearly under 1ppm before adding any more ammonia, and when you do, add it to get 3ppm. Don't worry, your bacteria will not die off, it should only take a couple of days at most, considering it looks like you've already got nitrite processing bacteria (based on your nitrate reading).
 
 
Don't change your water yet. Wait until the cycle finishes (when your tank processes 3ppm ammonia through to 0 ammonia and 0 nitrite within 24 hours), then do a massive water change (if your tank is fish and plant free you can basically suction it down to the substrate). Check your nitrates after you refill the tank, you should have not much more nitrate than what's in your tap water.  Then you're ready to go!