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Ask Questions About Cycling
Dandx13 said:
Here's what I would suggest since you didn't mention your pH. First, I'd test that. Even if the pH is stable right now, it probably won't be for much longer.
So, I'd do a 50% W/C. This will lower your nitrates and rebuffer your water. Afterwards, just bump up the ammonia to about 2ppm (add a 'half dose' rather than a full dose).
Then... do nothing until the nitrite drops under 1ppm again or 4 days pass, whichever comes first.
I did the water change and dosed to 2ppm yesterday already for precautionary measures. My pH has always been about 7.5
Right now my levels are:
Ammonia- 0ppm
Nitrites- 5ppm (very hard to read on API test)
Nitrates- 100ppm
pH- 7.5
Right now my levels are:
Ammonia- 0ppm
Nitrites- 5ppm (very hard to read on API test)
Nitrates- 100ppm
pH- 7.5
TwoTankAmin
Fish Connoisseur
Folks tend to focus too much on ammonia and then ignore the rest of the numbers. So lets cover a few things quickly.
The bacteria are hardier in many respects than most folks realize. They will not all die off fast if there is not ammonia or a lack of other essential nutrients.
The biggest mistake most folks make is adding too much ammonia and or adding it too often.
You may build up too much nitrite, but you cannot tell unless you perform diluted testing once you see your reading is at the top of the test scale.
Elevated nitrate can stall a cycle. But this should be easy to spot since it does so by dropping the pH. Your's appears stable. Check the KH as the carbonates it measures are needed by the bacteria. Dropping KH very low means the pH is going to follow if it already hasn't. KH not only feeds the bacteria but it alsio helps keep pH up.
Nitrate tests work by converting nitrate to nitrite and then reading that. If one has nitrite in a tank, it will affect the nitrate test results.
You have been adding too much ammonia- it should not be at 5 ppm during a cycle.
My advice here here is to do nothing until the nitrites drop some. If you get two consecutive tests of 0 for ammonia, you can add the 1 ppm snack dose (as long as the nitrites are not off the scale) and then wait until ammonia and nitrite come into the range where the next 3 ppm ammonia addition is called for in the article. I would not change any water unless things get out of range. Nitrates are not important here unless you see the pH dropping. You appear to have sufficient ammonia bacs developed and are now waiting for the nitrite ones to catch up. Changing water will only slow things down. Do not let nitrites go over 16 ppm on the API kit (do a diluted test if it gets to the top reading or else just do that 50% wc suggested by eagle, but not until clearly needed).
Do not deviate from the directions in the fishless cycling article. It was designed to be foolproof. The only thing that makes it not work is failing to follow the directions.
The bacteria are hardier in many respects than most folks realize. They will not all die off fast if there is not ammonia or a lack of other essential nutrients.
The biggest mistake most folks make is adding too much ammonia and or adding it too often.
You may build up too much nitrite, but you cannot tell unless you perform diluted testing once you see your reading is at the top of the test scale.
Elevated nitrate can stall a cycle. But this should be easy to spot since it does so by dropping the pH. Your's appears stable. Check the KH as the carbonates it measures are needed by the bacteria. Dropping KH very low means the pH is going to follow if it already hasn't. KH not only feeds the bacteria but it alsio helps keep pH up.
Nitrate tests work by converting nitrate to nitrite and then reading that. If one has nitrite in a tank, it will affect the nitrate test results.
You have been adding too much ammonia- it should not be at 5 ppm during a cycle.
My advice here here is to do nothing until the nitrites drop some. If you get two consecutive tests of 0 for ammonia, you can add the 1 ppm snack dose (as long as the nitrites are not off the scale) and then wait until ammonia and nitrite come into the range where the next 3 ppm ammonia addition is called for in the article. I would not change any water unless things get out of range. Nitrates are not important here unless you see the pH dropping. You appear to have sufficient ammonia bacs developed and are now waiting for the nitrite ones to catch up. Changing water will only slow things down. Do not let nitrites go over 16 ppm on the API kit (do a diluted test if it gets to the top reading or else just do that 50% wc suggested by eagle, but not until clearly needed).
Do not deviate from the directions in the fishless cycling article. It was designed to be foolproof. The only thing that makes it not work is failing to follow the directions.
That's what I was getting at. Follow the instructions and you'll be fine. I fail to understand how people get into problems, unless it's by not following the article. How people get to 4.5ppm ammonia and then worry about high nitrates bugs me for some reason.TwoTankAmin said:
As a complete newbie to cycling (and water chemistry), I did what the article told me to and had a perfect cycle. It seems a lot of other people run into problems, and then it turns out they're overdosing ammonia (too much and too often) and then ask questions about why it went wrong. Because you're not following directions, I guess...
We have a saying in my work, called RTFM...
I apologise if this sounded rude, I am in a lot of pain right now and have vented, perhaps unneccessarily.
If you have an infection and are prescribed antibiotics, and are told to take 2 pills every 8 hours, would you take 5 pills every 12 hours?
How experienced do I have to be, just by the way? If you ask for help and get it, then why the answer you gave?
Good luck with your tank, I promise not to advise you any further until I'm more experienced.
I promise not to take any more offence, however if you're asking for advice and I give it, then why take the tone you took? It appeared to me that you were not following the instructions in the article, so I advised (using the extremely useful source document that I read and followed for an excellent result). Why not follow the directions that have been developed over years of painstaking research (the same instructions that I followed, that are basically foolproof if you follow them), instead coming up with your own method that obviously isn't giving you the result you wanted?Dandx13 said:
If you have an infection and are prescribed antibiotics, and are told to take 2 pills every 8 hours, would you take 5 pills every 12 hours?
How experienced do I have to be, just by the way? If you ask for help and get it, then why the answer you gave?
Good luck with your tank, I promise not to advise you any further until I'm more experienced.
The guy had a specific question about nitrate and you told him high nitrate would not stall his cycle which was not really correct, as Eagle and TTA have both explained.
People can and do make mistakes while following the instructions, or they can mis-read or misinterpret or speed-read. Often there is a good reason. Allow some slack for people for being human
People can and do make mistakes while following the instructions, or they can mis-read or misinterpret or speed-read. Often there is a good reason. Allow some slack for people for being human
FingersofFish
Fish Fanatic
Hi all,
I have a question. I am currently on Day 4 of my fishless cycle and it's the first time I've done this.
On day 1 I had ammonia readings of roughly 3.5ppm after adding dose 1, A little higher than the 3ppm aimed for but i guessed that's just because I misscalculated the exact quantiity of water in the tank/errors in the crappy pippetes i'm using.
On day 4 I have 3.5/4ppm ammonia and over 5.0ppm nitirite? I have tested nitrite twice as I didn't believe the first reading. From what I've read this isn't normal.
I have a lightly planted 70L tank with natural rock an wood decor, running at 28celicus (82 farenheit) with 7 hours a day LED lighting.
I have a question. I am currently on Day 4 of my fishless cycle and it's the first time I've done this.
On day 1 I had ammonia readings of roughly 3.5ppm after adding dose 1, A little higher than the 3ppm aimed for but i guessed that's just because I misscalculated the exact quantiity of water in the tank/errors in the crappy pippetes i'm using.
On day 4 I have 3.5/4ppm ammonia and over 5.0ppm nitirite? I have tested nitrite twice as I didn't believe the first reading. From what I've read this isn't normal.
I have a lightly planted 70L tank with natural rock an wood decor, running at 28celicus (82 farenheit) with 7 hours a day LED lighting.
Did you happen to test your nitrite on day 1?
Did you use any mature media, gravel etc from an established tank?
It's not usually expected for nitrite to read so high after 4 days unless you have introduced some bacteria from an established tank.
I'd also expect your ammonia to have dropped as nitrite rises.
Did you use any mature media, gravel etc from an established tank?
It's not usually expected for nitrite to read so high after 4 days unless you have introduced some bacteria from an established tank.
I'd also expect your ammonia to have dropped as nitrite rises.
FingersofFish
Fish Fanatic
Thanks for the reply.
Unfortunatley didn't test the nitrite on cycle day 1 only pH and ammonia (pH was 8.0).
I added API quickstart a day prior to starting the cycle (added on the second day after setup I didn't start cycling until day 3). I had no intention to add fish immediatley but just assumed it might speed things up when i bought it, that was before i read the reviews on here regarding it being rather useless!.
I did think this may of been a cause for it but as you say I expected that if that was the case to see the ammonia down aswell. Having said this I do feel as though my reading of the API kit isn't great, I'm terrible at distinguishing colour and I have to keep asking my partner to tell me what colour it is as shes much better than me!
Unfortunatley didn't test the nitrite on cycle day 1 only pH and ammonia (pH was 8.0).
I added API quickstart a day prior to starting the cycle (added on the second day after setup I didn't start cycling until day 3). I had no intention to add fish immediatley but just assumed it might speed things up when i bought it, that was before i read the reviews on here regarding it being rather useless!.
I did think this may of been a cause for it but as you say I expected that if that was the case to see the ammonia down aswell. Having said this I do feel as though my reading of the API kit isn't great, I'm terrible at distinguishing colour and I have to keep asking my partner to tell me what colour it is as shes much better than me!
API Quickstart is considered 'useless' because it does not contain the right species of bacteria that we expect to colonise long-term. However it may still contain bacteria that are adept at processing short-term high concentrations of ammonia. I've never heard of anybody else claim to have results this successful with it though!
I'd wait a day and check your ammonia and nitrite readings again. If the Quickstart is indeed having an effect then ammonia should be dropping rapidly.
I wouldn't worry too much about exact readings on the API ammonia test. It's not generally accurate enough for the results to be regarded as so precise. If you're having trouble distinguishing between results then I'd say there probably isn't significant enough a change to worry about
I'd wait a day and check your ammonia and nitrite readings again. If the Quickstart is indeed having an effect then ammonia should be dropping rapidly.
I wouldn't worry too much about exact readings on the API ammonia test. It's not generally accurate enough for the results to be regarded as so precise. If you're having trouble distinguishing between results then I'd say there probably isn't significant enough a change to worry about
FingersofFish
Fish Fanatic
I will check again tomorrow thanks for the advice.
I guess with the API kit it just comes from being a biologist, For as long as i can remember ive had 'Accuracy and Precision' drilled into my head when doing laboratory testing etc.! But i guess thats easier when you have thousands of pounds worth of equipment! my kitchen counter will have to do.
I guess with the API kit it just comes from being a biologist, For as long as i can remember ive had 'Accuracy and Precision' drilled into my head when doing laboratory testing etc.! But i guess thats easier when you have thousands of pounds worth of equipment! my kitchen counter will have to do.
TwoTankAmin
Fish Connoisseur
Here is the interesting thing about the wrong bacteria. As daize noted, it can often provide a bridge. In one of the studies done by the group that identified the nitrite oxidizing bacteria in fw tanks, they tested a bottled product which contained Nitrobacter. This is a nitrite bac that handles high levels of nitrite. This research was the paper that identified Nitrospira as the dominant nitrite bacteria in tanks. This is a variety that works best at the lower nitrite levels which are typical in tanks.
What the research discovered was that when the wrong bacteria in a bottle was used, the onset of nitrite conversion started earlier but in the end the cycle itself still took the same amount of time. And when it was done there were basically no Nitrobacter presen,t there were only Nitrospira. This can also happen with ammonia bacteria.
The big difference once can see between bacterial starters is in how much time they cut off of the standard cycle. In the above case even though the bacteria did hold down nitrite some, in the end, the cycle was not shortened. This is why I am such a big supporter of Dr. Tim's product. When used properly, it can fully cycle a tank in about one week. The same can hold true wgen using seed bacteria taken from established tanks.
What the research discovered was that when the wrong bacteria in a bottle was used, the onset of nitrite conversion started earlier but in the end the cycle itself still took the same amount of time. And when it was done there were basically no Nitrobacter presen,t there were only Nitrospira. This can also happen with ammonia bacteria.
The big difference once can see between bacterial starters is in how much time they cut off of the standard cycle. In the above case even though the bacteria did hold down nitrite some, in the end, the cycle was not shortened. This is why I am such a big supporter of Dr. Tim's product. When used properly, it can fully cycle a tank in about one week. The same can hold true wgen using seed bacteria taken from established tanks.
FingersofFish
Fish Fanatic
I think i regret adding the stuff now, seems like it's just going to make it harder to obtain the results explained in the fishless cycling guide, which will be hella confusing!
Same again today after a retest.. ammonia not dropping still 3.0-4.0ppm (looks more like 4.0 today very dark) and Nitrite >5.0 very dark purple on test.
Same again today after a retest.. ammonia not dropping still 3.0-4.0ppm (looks more like 4.0 today very dark) and Nitrite >5.0 very dark purple on test.
Weird that nitrite is showing up with no drop in ammonia. I'd suggest just testing your tap water for nitrites. These are odd results to me.
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