A Few Questions

[jpast45]

hey guys, i've been looking for a forum related to raising fish, and this one seems pretty good, so i thought i'd join and maybe ask you a few questions.

just to give you a bit of background, I bought a 20 Gallon tank about 3-ish months ago, and the first fish the pet store recommended were black skirt tetras. after about a month i put in some new fish, such as goldfish, various tetras (neon, glolite, black neon, etc.) platy's and mollies. i have a couple questions to throw at you, i'm pretty sure there are plenty of people on here with more than enough experience tp answer these. i used to have fish about 10 years ago, but i never ran into any problems like this.

1.When i got the new fish, a fair amount of them seemed to die (3 out of 5 i guess). i thought this was because the black skirt tetras were chasing them, so when i got my next batch, i put the tetras in a breeding net just to see if that was the cause. a few more lived, but some still died. since then i put them back in with the rest, and they do not seem to be chasing any of them, not even each other, so i guess that solved that problem, but still whenever i put fish in, at least 1 or 2 die within the week. i have had the water checked by the pet store and they said it was fine. i have 3 plants, and the proper fluorescent bulb to promote growth. I'm still experiencing more fish die than i think is normal. i use all the right chemicals.... any advice?

2.this is kind of a tie-in with the first question, I currently have a "mickey mouse platy"(i don't know if that is the proper name for them) that was nipped a bit, and he seems to be fine, but all he does (as far as i see) is sit at the bottom of the tank in the corner. he must eat at night, but i have a feeling he's going to die. anything you can recommend to help save him? I've tried putting an injured fish in a breeding net, but they usually end up swimming in-between the plastic coloum and the net and dying.

3.when i noticed an algae buildup in the tank i bought 2 algae eaters. at time of purchase they were both 1 and a half inches long, now one of the is 3-4 inches, and the other is still the same size. is it normal for 2 fish to grow so differently?

4.final question for now. I think i have a pregnant pearl white molly, and i have been doing a bit of searching about it, and she now has a black spot above her anal fin, i believe it is called a "gravid". how much longer do you think before i should separate her into a breeding net?

5.final question. i have also been thinking of growing baby brine shrimp to feed them, i hear it is incredibly health for them. i have seen some fancy devices to grow them in, and I'm just wondering, whats the simplest way? I've looked around at local shops and nobody seems to carry any eggs, breeding equipment, or anything, so if i was to pursue this would have to buy it online, so i want to make sure i don't waste money on something I don't need.

Thank you for your time and patience. i would appreciate any feedback you have about any of these questions. i will be keeping an eye on this post vigilantly, so if you need any more info before you give me an accurate answer, just let me know and i will get it straight to you. I will add a picture of my tank tomorrow if you need to see it.

 

[Corleone]

Was the tank cycled first? By cycle, I don't mean the "set it up and run the filter" method the pet stores suggest, which really does nothing. If you kept fish before, you may know about cycling, but not about fishless cycling, which bypasses the problems with new tank syndrome.

The number of deaths sound like water quality ("new tank syndrome"), honestly. Do you have a test kit for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, etc? If not, get a liquid drop kit (more accurate, easier to read, and cheaper in the long run than the strips). Not knowing water stats, its hard to be sure, but it sounds normal for an uncycled tank. Ammonia and nitrite above 0 is bad, and above 0.25 ppm (mg/l depending on the test kit you use) is cause for immediate concern. Above 0.5 ppm is panic level.

Also, what are "all the right chemicals"? With the exception of a water conditioner to remove chlorine, all the right chemicals are usually none at all.

 

[waterdrop]

Hi jpast45 and welcome to the forums,

You may have just taken the best step possible, by finding this place and making an ID and starting to ask questions! The members here are really great and I'm sure they will start to get you sorted out. Be sure to add your geographic location to your profile, as at some point that may help them with some of the answers.

Corleone is on the right track and your first new action is to get right out there and find a liquid-based master kit and learn how to use it to test your water frequently. Many newcomers find it a funny feeling after a bit when they've come to realized that they bought all this expensive equipment but had no idea to focus in on this test kit as one of the most important first purchases to go along with a new tank. A test kit and some knowledge go a long way and often eliminate the need for any chemicals other than tap water.

I believe the top two kits used by beginners around TFF are the Hagen Nutrafin Mini-master, the one that has a nitrate test in it, or the API Freshwater Master Test Kit, which happens to be the one I use and have had good service from. The most important liquid tests to have are the ammonia, nitrite and pH tests. The nitrate test is also helpful a little farther down the road. Once you have accomplished this (and you may have to have it shipped in if you are rural) then practice by doing a couple of tests, following the directions carefully, on your tap water. Get a notebook and log the date, time and your results, along with any comments you want to make to yourself. Then post up your results here and ask further questions.

Now lets take a quick first look at your questions:
1) You were experiencing new tank syndrome. That's why we're getting you started on testing. You'll want to begin your reading now by looking for the pinned topics at the top of the this forum. A good beginning is the Beginners Resource Center, Cycling Resource Center and then look for articles by Miss Wiggle and AlienAnna.

2) We'll have to see, but probably your Platy is suffering because of the water quality issues we hope to address.

3) At least one of your algae eaters may be a common plec or other species that will grow entirely too large for your tank. You'll be able to get advice here on ways to hopefully get it re-homed.

4) Many livebearers have a gravid spot all the time. You can look for a swelling belly as a more sure sign. Livebearers are a problem, as they can quickly produce more new fish than you can handle.

5) Brine shrimp can be a nice "weekend treat" for your fish, but are definately a "treat" and not a good nutritious regular food, as are the balanced flake foods now easily purchased. I would wait a bit as you have much more serious beginner homework to do for the present.

Good luck and hope I pass back by sometime to see how you are doing! Almost any member here a while is going to be able to help you along the way as you post your results and questions. Be sure to read and search here widely as reading other beginners threads and past threads is a huge resource.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[jpast45]

To answer a few of the questions you asked, i cycled it for about 2 weeks having the whole tank set up with 1 plant, no fish. after that i added the 2 black skirt tetras. the only chemicals i have used are Aqua plus, and cycle (which turns out does very little after reading the cycling sticky). I was told this was what i was supposed to do, but i may have been misinformed. i have a Ph testing kit and I'm pretty sure that those levels are fine. I brought a water sample to the pet store, they offer free water testing. the tested it in about 4 different tubes for various things, and they said it was fine. I have not had it tested in a while though, so I may run out tomorrow and have it tested again.I will also look to see if they carry the testing kits you recommend.

In response to the algae eater answer, they are the same species, unless there are 2 species that look identical. I've just been noticing that some fish are growing astonishingly faster than others.

I live in Winnipeg, Canada. not that it has much to do with the topic, but someone requested it.

 

[Corleone]

To answer a few of the questions you asked, i cycled it for about 2 weeks having the whole tank set up with 1 plant, no fish. after that i added the 2 black skirt tetras. the only chemicals i have used are Aqua plus, and cycle (which turns out does very little after reading the cycling sticky). I was told this was what i was supposed to do, but i may have been misinformed. i have a Ph testing kit and I'm pretty sure that those levels are fine. I brought a water sample to the pet store, they offer free water testing. the tested it in about 4 different tubes for various things, and they said it was fine. I have not had it tested in a while though, so I may run out tomorrow and have it tested again.I will also look to see if they carry the testing kits you recommend.

In response to the algae eater answer, they are the same species, unless there are 2 species that look identical. I've just been noticing that some fish are growing astonishingly faster than others.

You ran it for two weeks... Did you add an ammonia source? If not, you didn't cycle the tank at all, just ran the filter on clean water. You're right, you were misinformed - too many pet stores are out to hook the big one-time deals selling tanks and equipment, and not than the long-term business from a successful and satisfied customer who will continue to buy food and fish for many years to come.

Just like the pet stores give poor cycling advice, they honestly can't be trusted doing water tests for you. Get the numbers from them, not "It's fine" - it's entirely likely it isn't fine, just not immediately fatal.

Were the algae eaters sold simply as "algae eaters"? If so, they're likely Chinese algae eaters, which I believe may outgrow the tank (not sure on that), and at any rate have a habit of becoming aggressive with age. You can look through the species index for a match to help identify them.

As for the difference in growth rate, if there's ammonia in the water, one of them could be stressed and not eating, but also one could simply be out competing it for food. Fish do have a bit of a pecking order, depending on species. I've had similar disparity in growth rates with a number of my fish. Something you could try is breaking the algae tablet you feed the algae eaters in a few pieces and scattering them so that the largest fish can't try to claim them all for himself.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

just to say i agree with all the advice given above.

getting the shop to test the water is fine, but ask them for the exact readings, not just to say it's 'fine' or 'too high' or whatever. Make sure you get the actual numbers for pH, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate and post them here, we can then see what's really going on.

just leaving the tank for two weeka nd adding cycle won't have done anything, you'll have been cycling with fish, it may have finished now but that would definatley account for the high number of deaths.

can you list out some more detailed info on your tank, exactly what fish do you have, how many of each (if you can identify male/female tell us that as well), what make and models of equipment are you using? What chemicals/products have you used so far? What are you doing for maintenance?

 

[vinylman]

Are you still mixing Coldwater and Tropical fish?. If you have both in the same tank, you really can't give both of them the best conditions possible. Goldfish are VERY messy, and really need a large tank of their own; 20 gallons for the first Goldfish, plus an additional 10 gallons for each additional one.

 

[jpast45]

I'm going to be picking up a full testing kit tomorrow before work.

To answer your question about the tank, I didnt add an ammonia source, and had no clue i was supposed to. the only chemicals I have used are aqua-plus, and cycle. to clean the tank (every 2 weeks)I use a vacuum gravel dealie, and replace the water with water from a container that sits next to the aquarium, then add more Aqua-plus, depending on how much water i change.

I Have not changed the "board" in my Filter since i set up the tank, it says in the manual to change this every 2 weeks. is that right? that seems a little too often.

The Fish I have in the tank are
3 Comet Goldfish
2 black skirt tetras
2 Pearl white mollys (female)
1 black molly (female)
2 red phantom tetras
2 chinese algae eaters
1 pepper corydas
3 mickey mouse platys
3 miscellaneous platys (I know they are platys, but i do not know exactly what kind)

I also have 3 plants, not too sure what type they are, but the first one looked as if it was dying for the first couple weeks, now it's crazy blossoming with the rest

 

[jpast45]

I went to the pet store today, and got them to test the water again for me, and he told me my nitrates (or nitrites, dont know which one) were too high. He advised me to do a water change and keep an eye on the levels. I bought a testing kit with everything in it, but i want to make sure i picked out a good one before I opened it, so i took a pic of it so one of you can tell me. once you give me the go-ahead i will open it up, test for everything, and fill you in on the results

while i was there he also showed me another product you put in the filter that is apparently supposed to help with my nitrate/nitrite levels. it was called purigen. Any comments on whether i should use or return it?

I also have not gotten an answer on the question about changing the filter. I've got an order of filters coming from Ebay, I got a 5-pack for less than $15, but if i should change it immediately i will run out and buy one right away

thanks. the fastest responses would be most appreciated, as i am waiting on you before doing anything. I dont want to throw money away on the wrong equipment, or even worse, risk harming my fish

 

[Corleone]

That's the test kit I (and a good deal of people here) use.

IMO, don't use the purigen, but keep it on hand. It's Zeolite or something similar, if I remember right. It may well absorb nitrite and the like, but it will also starve your bacteria and prevent your cycle from progressing. That sort of stuff is best kept on hand for a quarantine tank, but not used in the regular tank.

As for the filter cartridges, you don't generally need carbon in the filter unless you're removing a finished run of medication. The biological media should never be changed (this varies by filter brand - it might be ceramic rings or chunks, or a loose fiber sponge), and the mechanical media should just be rinsed in tank water periodically. If its reducing filter flow and you can't get it any cleaner, or its falling apart, it's time to replace it.

Going back to your last post, step your cleaning up to weekly (once your cycle is done). In the meantime, you may need to do much more water changing to keep ammonia and nitrIte under 0.25 - any amount of either (especially ammonia) is harmful, anything over .25 is an immediate concern.

If the plant that appeared to be dying at first a small leafed plant, possible red? It might be a crypt. Every one I've ever put in my tanks died back to its roots, but flourished from there.

The Fish I have in the tank are
3 Comet Goldfish
2 black skirt tetras
2 Pearl white mollys (female)
1 black molly (female)
2 red phantom tetras
2 chinese algae eaters
1 pepper corydas
3 mickey mouse platys
3 miscellaneous platys (I know they are platys, but i do not know exactly what kind)

For a 20 gallon tank, you're far overstock. The inch per gallon rule isn't hard-and-fast, but for small fish, it's a good beginner guideline. What it means is one inch of adult fish per gallon of water. You can go past it, but it's a matter of experience how far, and staying inside the rule is usually safe for beginners, or with a young tank.

Here's where you're at right now:


3 Comet Goldfish: Highly variable, but you can expect upwards of 36 inches from the three if they grow to their full size - the three alone may be allright if you've got a good filter and they start small (Though some people here would suggest a tank for just one). They're cold water fish, and won't do well in a tropical heated tank long term. Keep in mind gold fish can live decades and get immense when you buy them. Also, they're very messy fish and will need major filtration, even on an appropriate tank, so they don't play nicely in the inch per gallon rule.

2 black skirt tetras: 4"
3 Mollys: 9"
2 red phantom tetras: 4"
2 chinese algae eaters: 18" (potentially quite aggressive when they grow up, too)
1 pepper corydas: 2"
6 platys: 12"

Total: ~50 inches of tropical fish. The goldfish are a wildcard, but will be a huge bioload given a few months, if they survive.

What are your test results so far?

If your cycle still isn't fully progressed (ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate is ok, and you normally will have some), your options would be large and frequent water changes or rehoming the fish entirely and starting a fishless cycle. I highly doubt all your fish will survive, either in the short term if you are cycled, or the long term otherwise.

 

[jpast45]

here are the results
Ammonia:0ppm
PH:7.4
Nitrate:0
Nitrite:1
it looks as if i am going to be picking up some nitra-zorb or stress-zyme tomorrow before work

I am going to be doing a cleaning tomorrow as well. when i add the Aqua plus would it be best to place it into the new water before it is put in the tank or after i change it?

I think this is the plant I have, if it is not this exact one, it is definitely an anubis strand.
http/www.aquahobby.com/garden/e_anubias.php

the second plant i got is unknown, i cannot seem to find it, so i am going to include a pic of my tank so you can see them, and if you have any suggestions on the setup, let me know.

the 3rd one i got is the following
http/www.aquahobby.com/garden/e_monnieri.php

Just so I'm clear, the cartridge in my filter should never be changed? it just has a standard plate design, not ceramic. it is an Aquatech 20-40, I cannot seem to find a website for it though.

here is the picture of my tank if you want to take a look the plant on the right is the one i cant identify. the 2nd pic offers a closer look, as well as 2 happy tetras, although a bit blurry

 

[Miss Wiggle]

The nitrite is a problem, it's one of two things

1 - the tank is still cycling

2 - the filter is underperfoming for the amount of fish you have

Without the historic test readings the only real way to tell is give it a bit of time, if it's a cycle it'll go eventually, if it's the filter underperforming then nothing will shift it.

You don't need nitra-zorb or stress zyme, you need regular daily water changes, that is the single best way to get shot of any ammonia or nitrite in the tank.

Do daily water changes and daily testing for the next week or so, record the reuslts of all the tests and in a few days we may have a clearer picture of what's going on although sometimes it's a little hard to determine the exact cause.

 

[waterdrop]

ok j,

Major advance I see! You've found a good test kit and posted up your tank water results. And you've received an analysis by one of the pros, MW herself.

To repeat, you're now all set with the basics you need: tap water, conditioner (your AquaSafe) and test kit (the ammonia, nitrIte and pH tests in your api kit.) That's it - other stuff is not needed.

Your test shows that you need to start getting that nitrIte down right away via water changes. Nitrite is a poison to fish because it attaches itself to the hemoglobin molecules in their blood and takes away the spots on that molecule where oxygen is normally attached - which leads to suffocation, with the normal effects this has on any animal - brain damage etc.
Your goal is to use water changes to get that level to approach zero.

You can start with a 75% water change if nitrite is still up at 1.0 or above. If that doesn't get it to 0.25 or below, then repeat the process after an hour. Pretty quickly, you should be able to get down to 0.25 and less. Every water change should include the proper amount of conditioner in the return water, which should also be temperature matched roughly by feeling with your hand.

Your goal is to find a pattern of water changes such that a 50 or 25% change once or twice a day seems to keep those ammonia and nitrite tests showing 0.25 or less. (While you a mucking with all this water, you are allowed to silently curse that you didn't hear about fishless cycling before getting fish, which would have eliminated all this trouble!) Meanwhile, keep reading about the Nitrogen cycle (wikipedia on the web has some diagrams) so that you understand what the heck is going on here - its really quite interesting once you get into it.

That's about it for now - don't know that we've answered your filter questions to your satisfaction yet, but I'll say that usually you don't need to replace the sponges or ceramics for years unless they start to fall apart. You will learn to gently squeeze the sponges in a bucket of tank water or just dip or gently swish the panels in tank water. (Tap water cleaning would kill the bacteria you are now trying to grow!)

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Dave Spencer]

IMO, don't use the purigen, but keep it on hand. It's Zeolite or something similar, if I remember right. It may well absorb nitrite and the like, but it will also starve your bacteria and prevent your cycle from progressing. That sort of stuff is best kept on hand for a quarantine tank, but not used in the regular tank.

I feel this point needs a little clarifying.

Purigen removes water discolourants such as tannins, humic acid and organic nitrogenous waste. Coming from the aquascaping side of the hobby, I run all my tanks with this stuff due to my obsession with unnaturally crystal clear water. I wouldn`t be without it personally, but I doubt whether it is necessary in your case.

Zeolite will absorb(?) ammonia from the water column, and is another product I always use. I use it when I first set up a tank to keep ammonia levels as low as possible during the early days when a high lighted planted tank is vulnerable to algae. I have heard horror stories about it leaching ammonia back in to the water once it is exhausted, but I believe this to be scare mongering. What should happen is that it becomes colonised with nitrifying bacteria on its large surface area to provide a fair amount of biological filtration.

Dave.

 

[rabbut]

Zeolite is an ion exchangers so I don't belive it possible for it to dump ammonia back into the water, in theory....

However, purigen does not remove ammonia or nitrite, I am told by people whom use it, so is safe for general use. It can be re-changed in salt water, apparently leaching all it's absorbed muck back out, same as Zeolite will when dipped in salt. This is why niether filter media can be used in brackish or marine tanks, as it won't do the job it was placed into the filter to do.

I am dubious of using zeolite in any freshweter tank that is intended as a long-term set-up. Zeolite is useful for QT tanks, but absorbs some medications and will prohibit a tank from cycling correctly untill it is saturated in about a months time. It won't stop an ammonia spike, rather hold it off for about a month. Yes, bacteria can colonise it, but only after saturation. Before then, it will out compete the bacteria for ammonia and nitrite.

I don't know what purigen is based on, so I can't say how it works. It cannont be zeolite though, as zeolite is renownd for it's ammonia absorbing qualities, and it does not absorbe ammonia, so I am told.

Think of Zeolite as an ammonia removing media for temerary use. Think of Purigen as re-usable carbon, with a longer life span. Treat them as such

All the best
Rabbut