1 Week On - Cycling!

[alexlark]

Hi guys!

Well, I filled my 175L tank last weekend with freshly made RO water and then added the salt on Monday and checked the silanity with a refractometer. Added 22Kg of LR on Wednesday (planning on getting another 3kg of LR rubble for my canister). I also treated the tank with a product from Seachem called Stability, it was recomened by the guy at the LR place. The product says to treat the tank every day for the first week after setting up a new tank. Checked my perameters lastnight and these are the results:

Ph - 7.8
Amonia - 0
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - 0
Phosphate - 0.03

Would I be right in saying that the cycle has not started yet and this is how my perameters are so low?

Thanks!

 

[Adrinal]

Hi guys!

Well, I filled my 175L tank last weekend with freshly made RO water and then added the salt on Monday and checked the silanity with a refractometer. Added 22Kg of LR on Wednesday (planning on getting another 3kg of LR rubble for my canister). I also treated the tank with a product from Seachem called Stability, it was recomened by the guy at the LR place. The product says to treat the tank every day for the first week after setting up a new tank. Checked my perameters lastnight and these are the results:

Ph - 7.8
Amonia - 0
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - 0
Phosphate - 0.03

Would I be right in saying that the cycle has not started yet and this is how my perameters are so low?

Thanks!

likely the product locks up nutrients in a way that they are not detected. Just a guess. What that means in the long run though... would also be a guess.

I dont even test for 6 weeks. Heavy skimming and water changes and scrubbing and swishing and dunking. When the rocks stop dropping flock then i might test... maybe

 

[Lynden]

Considering you have phosphate but not any ammonia... I would say the cycle may even be done. The rock might be cured already or simply didn't have much dead stuff on it. Might be worth it to buy a mollie to help the cycling along and to keep any bacteria "fed"; they will die without a source of ammonia.

 

[alexlark]

The LR I purchased was fully cured. It only took me 45mins to transport home and put in the tank. Almost all of the LR has purple coraline algea growing on it. One piece however has some green leaves growing on it (pic below). Should I have scrubbed this stuff off before placing it in the tank?

 

[Tommy Gun]

How did you tansport it home? 45 minutes out of water is a relatively long time and you should expect some die off...and resulting ammonia readings. However, you may not see that instantly since there is a slight lag in time between when something dies and when the bacteria start the process from creating ammonia and into the nitrogen cycle....yada, yada, yada.

Considering you have phosphate but not any ammonia

Just to clarify...phosphates have little to do with the nitrogen cycle and so they are not an indicator of the progress of your tank. However, I agree, it is possible that you may have essenitally cloned your tank and will only see a mini-cycle, if anything at all.

Might be worth it to buy a mollie to help the cycling along

One of the reasons I am really starting to dislike you Lynden is becuase you offer this advice almost as if you are waiting for a comment to pop up so you can expand and show how smart you are or something. IMHO, this is not only silly advice because...and I don't care what you say....unless you are purchasing a molly which is already accustomed to brackish conditions (or better), you are not going to find absolute success in simply plopping one from a FW tank to a SW tank, and even then, these fish aren't 'invincible', nor do I feel it to be all that responsible to try that when there are other, probably easier, methods that we can use without intentionally placing a life in jeopardy via huge, immediate changes in water chemistry. Perhaps finding mollies in brackish tanks at an LFS is more common in the Uk or Canada than it is here in the US, but leaving out this little tidbit of info is pretty misleading IMHO. My advice would be, if you have need to buy yourself a bit of time so that you can perform some water tests over the next few days to see how much die off has occured, you can simply drop some food in the tank. Besides, I highly doubt that one molly can produce enough ammonia to supply the entire potential amount of benificial bacteria that could be on that live rock right now anyways....so you are inevitably going to lose some, or maybe even a lot of it, but that is fine so long as you stock slowly.

Sorry alex, I can't really tell what that green, leafy stuff is from your picture. Hopefully someone else can help you more.

 

[Lynden]

phosphates have little to do with the nitrogen cycle and so they are not an indicator of the progress of your tank

True enough but they can be produced by wastes or dead things.

One of the reasons I am really starting to dislike you Lynden

Starting? Could've fooled me.

.and I don't care what you say....

I can tell, seeing as no matter how much evidence or experience I state to back my claims it's not good enough for you.

unless you are purchasing a molly which is already accustomed to brackish conditions (or better), you are not going to find absolute success in simply plopping one from a FW tank to a SW tank

Perhaps but they can be easily acclimated within an hour.

and even then, these fish aren't 'invincible', nor do I feel it to be all that responsible to try that when there are other, probably easier, methods that we can use without intentionally placing a life in jeopardy via huge, immediate changes in water chemistry

The things is, though, is that it's not placing a life in jeopardy. Mollies are very tough fish and well adapted to changes in their environment.

I highly doubt that one molly can produce enough ammonia to supply the entire potential amount of benificial bacteria that could be on that live rock right now anyways....so you are inevitably going to lose some, or maybe even a lot of it, but that is fine so long as you stock slowly.

But keeping some is better than keeping none. In truth it seems that while not adding a mollie could perhaps save it's life (again the chances of it dying are slim to none; I've seen them survive ammonia and nitrite levels exceeding what a test kit could measure), the same action will jeopardize the lives of future fish and any animals on the live rock as they will have to suffer through a cycle.

I may be young, Tommy, be from what I've gathered here I have a much broader range of experience than you seem to... bold statement I know, but I find it to be fitting the situation.

 

[Tommy Gun]

I can tell, seeing as no matter how much evidence or experience I state to back my claims it's not good enough for you.

What!?!?!? You cited one sentence from nmonks which didn't even say what you are thinking.

Let me help you learn what anecdotal really means:
based on or consisting of reports or observations of usually unscientific observers (www.m-w.com, keyword: anecdotal)

Call the kettle black now.

The things is, though, is that it's not placing a life in jeopardy. Mollies are very tough fish and well adapted to changes in their environment.

First, my point here is that you are providing advice here which serves no other purpose than to propagate your own reputation or something...to be honest, I am not sure what your goal is...but why even suggest something like this when there are much easier methods of doing the same thing? Well, unless you just want to show off or something. Heck, why not simply suggest buying a damsel?

Don't worry, I will let you off the hook on the osmosis debate again.

again the chances of it dying are slim to none; I've seen them survive ammonia and nitrite levels exceeding what a test kit could measure),

Why? Where? Who are you stealing that idea from? Do you think that just because this is possible, you should do it? I once took a bullet right through one of my lungs and not only am I alive, I still can breathe without any problem....doesn't mean I want to do it again, nor push my luck with it again.

I apologize for being so blunt here....but you don't seem to get the point: there is no reason to point out half of what you often times do....sometimes you create these logical bridges that cannot really be made (comparing apples to oranges)....and it seems as though your advice focuses solely on you trying to prove that you are smarter than everyone or something along those lines. I cannot understand why you want to complicate things, and even if that is warranted, why you skip the reasoning behind it so it is all lost in cyber-space.

I may be young, Tommy, be from what I've gathered here I have a much broader range of experience than you seem to... bold statement I know, but I find it to be fitting the situation.

Once again, I couldn't care less about your age, and yes, that is a bold statement coming from someone who does not know me nor what I have experienced. I will tell you what I have noticed your experience stemming from though....taking snippets of information out of context and trying to imply that it holds true in every and any situation, or that just because it could be possible, it should be done. Perhaps you can enlighten us further though...


In your infinite wisdom and experience, why do you feel it to be so important to steer Alex in the direction of a molly versus using what apparently is the 'fools' method of adding some food...or perhaps a hardy (and cheap, in monetary terms only) marine fish like damsel?

Why, in your infinite wisdom and experience, do you feel as though all of Alex's phosphates are coming from 'dead stuff' and not from another source? Did you ask what the phosphate level was before adding the live rock? Why, in your infinite wisdom and experience, is it even necessary to bring phosphates up and seemingly connect them with a cycle when you and I both know that, even if there is a slight connection, it serves no other purpose than for you to throw up some cloud of 'look at me!'.

Nitrogen cycle - "Bacteria found in soils [and water] convert organic forms of nitrogen to inorganic forms of nitrogen" - University of Missouri

In your infinite wisdom and experience, is phosphate a form of nitrogen?

 

[Lynden]

First, my point here is that you are providing advice here which serves no other purpose than to propagate your own reputation or something

Or maybe it could be my honest opinion. Sounds impossible I know, but people do come on here to do something besides ragging on others.

I am not sure what your goal is

Could it be to give people who are asking an honest opinion backed by experience?

I will let you off the hook on the osmosis debate again

Odd that you would bring that up as I thought we resolved that as a partial misunderstanding... we were both right in our own points; yes, acclimation times should be considered, but they can also adapt relatively quickly to changes.

Who are you stealing that idea from?

Well, me... it was in my tank, though months ago.

In your infinite wisdom and experience, why do you feel it to be so important to steer Alex in the direction of a molly versus using what apparently is the 'fools' method of adding some food...or perhaps a hardy (and cheap, in monetary terms only) marine fish like damsel?

Adding food is a reasonable solution, though not as effective as adding a molly. Adding a damsel, that's just rediculous... they are hard to catch (in case the person wanted to rid of it), more expensive, no where near as hardy, and aggressive in many cases. Mollies have many benefits, they eat algae, produce occasional live food, are hardy, and are small and easy to catch.

Why, in your infinite wisdom and experience, do you feel as though all of Alex's phosphates are coming from 'dead stuff' and not from another source? Did you ask what the phosphate level was before adding the live rock? Why, in your infinite wisdom and experience, is it even necessary to bring phosphates up and seemingly connect them with a cycle when you and I both know that, even if there is a slight connection, it serves no other purpose than for you to throw up some cloud of 'look at me!'.

Well It thought there could be some connection; Alex adds the live rock, it releases some phosphate into the water, but no ammonia. Sorry for not being 100% perfect and for being confident enough to speculate in public.

In your infinite wisdom and experience, is phosphate a form of nitrogen?

...no. Honestly all the sarcasm can't be helping with the other's opinion of you. Or mine, for that matter.

Look. Why me? Why not SkiFletch, or Andy, or any other of our other regulars? We all give info and opinions as best we can, recommend correct things and refute incorrect things based on experience and research, and try to be kind and respectful as we do so. I am sorry that I keep bringing age up but that is the only variable I can see. Explaination?

 

[Tommy Gun]

Or maybe it could be my honest opinion. Sounds impossible I know, but people do come on here to do something besides ragging on others

Don't state your opinion as though it is a fact then!

And for the record, May I remind you of who first told who "w/e dude?" Don't talk the talk until you can walk the walk!

I am NOT ragging on you and this comment only helps bolster my opinion that you are on this forum to show off or something becuase I can find many many many instances where you ask one person or another not to disagree with you. Let me give you a hint - we will when you start being 100% right. This is not a popularity contest, nor is it a a place to figure out who is smarter than the other. You need to realize that someone might actually take go out and buy a molly, plop it in a tank, get so discouraged becuase it died, and give up on the hobby because if this is the only option, then he/she doesnt want to do it anymore. Granted, an extreme example, but it can apply on many levels.

You cannot deny the fact that I have made some very valid points here....at least for someone who has no experience anyways.

Odd that you would bring that up as I thought we resolved that as a partial misunderstanding... we were both right in our own points; yes, acclimation times should be considered, but they can also adapt relatively quickly to changes.

Yup, I remember....the reason I am replying to this is #1, because I would like to help Alex get some advice which is easy and proven to work at least 95% of the time, and #2, because you actually said:

again the chances of it dying are slim to none; I've seen them survive ammonia and nitrite levels exceeding what a test kit could measure

versus saying that the chances of it dying are slim to none if you acclimate it properly which may require some time....but never mind that, I am about to help you understand more about mollies, trying to get through some of Dr. Monks publications first though.

Adding food is a reasonable solution, though not as effective as adding a molly. Adding a damsel, that's just rediculous... they are hard to catch (in case the person wanted to rid of it), more expensive, no where near as hardy, and aggressive in many cases. Mollies have many benefits, they eat algae, produce occasional live food, are hardy, and are small and easy to catch.

Get out of here! So, you are saying that in one hour I can buy a freshwater molly, float it and dump it into a saltwater tank, the thing will surely live, and will be easier to catch than any other fish of its size?

How much do you pay for damsels cuz I might have to set up shop near you because I can buy them for a dollar or two.

Given the right circumstances, mollies can be aggressive too....and there are some very passive damsels out there as well. I still have my pair of green chromis which I used to help 'test' the cycle of my 29 gallon tank at one time and they are genuinely the nicest fish I have ever kept...say hi and bye to me when I go to work even!

...no. Honestly all the sarcasm can't be helping with the other's opinion of you. Or mine, for that matter.

I ain't skeered of andy, dont worry. I don't really care what you think about me either....I am providing decent ideas which, if anyone would like, can be researched and found that it is common advice. Which, I admit, is NOT to say you are completely wrong...please understand that...only that there are much easier methods of going about some things. Ok? Please don't be mad at me, I am just trying to help.

 

[Lynden]

Don't state your opinion as though it is a fact then!

I... don't? If it is just my opinion, I will say "in my opinion", but if it's truly a fact, such as "planktonivorous triggers don't touch corals or snails" I will certainly state it as such.

becuase I can find many many many instances where you ask one person or another not to disagree with you

Such as?

I don't doubt you totally; am just trying to understand what I can do to make myself sound like less of an ass, since others have basically told me that before; thought I had worked on it, but I guess not.

someone might actually take go out and buy a molly, plop it in a tank, get so discouraged becuase it died, and give up on the hobby because if this is the only option, then he/she doesnt want to do it anymore.

In all honesty it would probably have no trouble dealing with this; it may not be the best example. They really are tough fish.

You cannot deny the fact that I have made some very valid points here

Which is why I don't.

the reason I am replying to this is #1, because I would like to help Alex get some advice which is easy and proven to work at least 95% of the time

Me too, man.

versus saying that the chances of it dying are slim to none if you acclimate it properly which may require some time

Either way, they are almost guaranteed to survive. Mollies are tough fish.

Get out of here! So, you are saying that in one hour I can buy a freshwater molly, float it and dump it into a saltwater tank, the thing will surely live, and will be easier to catch than any other fish of its size?

Er... yes.

 

[Lynden]

How much do you pay for damsels cuz I might have to set up shop near you because I can buy them for a dollar or two

The cheapest I can get them for is $4, plus shipping (which is alot). Don't add insult to injury!

Given the right circumstances, mollies can be aggressive too....and there are some very passive damsels out there as well.

I agree, and never have I stated otherwise, in fact I have argued in favour of most damsels being non-aggressive. Which is why I said "in many cases"... as opposed to "most".

I ain't skeered of andy, dont worry. I don't really care what you think about me either

Never said you were "skeered of andy"... I, being the half-decent person I am, do care a little about what others think of me, even on the internet. In my opinion some self-awareness builds character and helps shape a better person. Even then, I personally do not think that "he keeps disagreeing with me on the internet" is really any grounds to base an opinion or judgement of someone else in the real world. Do you?

Ok? Please don't be mad at me, I am just trying to help.

I must admit I'm a little frustrated, but that'll wear off in a few minutes.

Lastly, I'm not sure I understand how me assuming that other people have done a little research could be inferred as "that little asshole thinks he's smarter than me!" but, I guess I'll have to treat everyone as they were a complete moron instead, just in case. That'll be better received for sure.

 

[SkiFletch]

Hi guys!

Well, I filled my 175L tank last weekend with freshly made RO water and then added the salt on Monday and checked the silanity with a refractometer. Added 22Kg of LR on Wednesday (planning on getting another 3kg of LR rubble for my canister). I also treated the tank with a product from Seachem called Stability, it was recomened by the guy at the LR place. The product says to treat the tank every day for the first week after setting up a new tank. Checked my perameters lastnight and these are the results:

Ph - 7.8
Amonia - 0
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - 0
Phosphate - 0.03

Would I be right in saying that the cycle has not started yet and this is how my perameters are so low?

Thanks!

Back to Alex's original post here... It sounds like the "cycle" is complete. If the rock is really well cured, 45mins out of the water IME really isn't all that much. Was there dieoff, probably, but in healthy cured rock the dieoff can be processed VERY quickly. The clearly healthy macroalgae and all that coraline algae can process ammonia directly at low concentrations and can short-circuit the cycle (meaning no nitrate end-product is produced). I'm never really an advocate for stocking early unless you buy LR from a local reefer's tank that's very established, but it sounds like your tank is pretty close to the addition of livestock Alex

 

[Lynden]

...yup.

 

[psycho-killer]

jeezz one wouldnt say this is a forum for fishkeepers.. tommy leave ur comments for yourself just state what you would have done and not break down other peoples comments, not all marine tanks are the same and people experiance diffrent things in their own...

like most people will boo and go mad when i say i dont do aclimate my fish and i have never lost a coral or fish to that..

 

[alexlark]

Thanks SkiFletch! I am going to re-test my perameters on Sat and if all is OK I will get my CUC. If everything is OK after another 2 weeks I will prob get a pair of clowns and see how I get on. I'm taking this nice and SLOWLY!

PS. Shall I just leave the stuff that is on the LR and let the CUC deal with it?