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The pH needs to be above 6.5 for cycling. The lower the pH, the slower. This is what the method on here says about pH during cycling

If it does drop, it can be raised again using bicarbonate of soda, but one the cycle is finished, let the pH be what it wants to be.
Sorry but it is just not true that a cycle needs at least a PH of 6.,5. My water is a PH of 6.0-6.2 and cycled just fine. This is personal experience. The PH does NOT need to 6.5 or higher. A lower PH may or may not extend the cycle time but will not prevent the cycle to happen. Shoot, when I used to live in Ohio tap water was actually less than 6.0 as to PH yet still cycled fine with either fresh or salt water.

Sorry again but PH isn't really a factor as to whether a tank is healthy. It is a matter of the type of fish you should home. Again it is a matter of matching your fish to your water instead of trying to match your water to fish.

It is really simple. Water PH will not affect cycling to a major extent unless the PH is to the extreme... Have a PH of 8.5 and good luck on finding fish that will thrive. Have a PH level of 6.0-75 or so and there is a very wide choice of great fish to keep.
 
TwoTankAmin has extensively researched cycling in the scientific literature, and the method he wrote on here warns against low pH during fishless cycling. That's what I'm quoting. We are taking about pH during fishless cycling, not the pH when we have fish. The water conditions and parameters during fishless cycling can be altered significantly away from those in our tap water as there are no fish to harm. it's just that most of want to get fish and the sooner the cycle completes, the happier we are. Having pH over 7 during fishless cycling makes the cycling process shorter.

Once the cycle is finished, we do a big water change and replace the water in the tank with tap water. Now we need to look at the hardness and to a lesser extent the pH and choose fish which suit these parameters. Having already grown enough bacteria, the pH can be well below 7, as long as the fish are suited to this.



@777james777 I also had a trace of nitrite appear then disappear by the next test. I just carried on testing until I got those readings. I would just go away and let the bacteria do what they need to do. Even if it was 4 or 5 days before you can test again it doesn't matter, just pick up where you left off when you get home again.
 
@777james777 I also had a trace of nitrite appear then disappear by the next test. I just carried on testing until I got those readings. I would just go away and let the bacteria do what they need to do. Even if it was 4 or 5 days before you can test again it doesn't matter, just pick up where you left off when you get home again.
Brill, yeah the next time I will be able to test is wednesday morning. So I will leave everything running and pick up when I get back to see were its up too.
What's your prediction of what will have happened :)
 
Impossible to say. I got so impatient that I started testing every 2 days instead of 3 and it took about 3 weeks before I got those readings. Every tank is different.
 
TwoTankAmin has extensively researched cycling in the scientific literature, and the method he wrote on here warns against low pH during fishless cycling. That's what I'm quoting. We are taking about pH during fishless cycling, not the pH when we have fish. The water conditions and parameters during fishless cycling can be altered significantly away from those in our tap water as there are no fish to harm. it's just that most of want to get fish and the sooner the cycle completes, the happier we are. Having pH over 7 during fishless cycling makes the cycling process shorter.

Once the cycle is finished, we do a big water change and replace the water in the tank with tap water. Now we need to look at the hardness and to a lesser extent the pH and choose fish which suit these parameters. Having already grown enough bacteria, the pH can be well below 7, as long as the fish are suited to this.



@777james777 I also had a trace of nitrite appear then disappear by the next test. I just carried on testing until I got those readings. I would just go away and let the bacteria do what they need to do. Even if it was 4 or 5 days before you can test again it doesn't matter, just pick up where you left off when you get home again.
Sorry nut I MUST disagree with respect for those with more knowledge. Bacteria is no less of a living critter than a fish; just smaller and more simple. Would you move fish from a PH of 7.5 to a level of 6.0 with no reason? I doubt that you would so why would you do that to your tank? :dunno:
 
The issue of pH and cycling is not as simple as most would like it. However, pH most definitely has an effect on cycling. It is the biology and chemistry involved which explains things.

The ammonia oxidizing bacteria prefer to have ammonia as NH3. This is ammonia gas. However, water does strange things with a lot of chemistry. When ammonia (NH3) gets dissolved in water. most of it becomes ammonium (NH4). It is possible to know how much of the ammonia in water is in each form.

Most of our hobby test kits measure what is known as Total Ammonia (TA). This is sum and any NH3 + NH4 in the water. The higher the pH is and the higher the water temperature is, the more of the TA will be in the form of NH3. However, pH is much more important than temp. in determing this NH3 is what harms our fish etc. NH4 is way less toxic. But, for the bacteria it is "food."

So, when NH3 or NH4 enters the water, it will get re-balanced into whatever proportion the pH and temp. dictates. But, as the pH drops below 7, the amount of NH3 decreases rapidly. By pH 6.0 there is almost 0 in the form of NH3. So how can the bacteria survive? Science knew there was little or no ammonia/ammonium in the water at lower pH levels, but they did not know why this was the case. Reseach figured it out.

The bacteria prefer NH3 and they have lots of "receptors" for it. However, they also have some for NH4, but nowhere near as many. Basically, the bacteria cannot process NH$ as effectively as they can NH3. So, when we are cycling a tank and the pH starts to drop under 7, the bacteria are not working as well. This means ammonia levels are going to start to rise the lower the pH goes.

For us, what appears to happen is that the cycle stalls when the water becomes acid. Ammonia levels do not drop and may even rise. But the bacteria are still and worming, but less efficiently. What has to happen is that they need to reproduce so there are more of them. But they reproduce somewhat slowly. In optimal conditions they can double their numbers in about 8 hours. But now the conditions are nowhere near optimal.

If we do nothing at this time out tank will still get cycled, but it will take a lot longer is all. So, in the interest of having the task iof cycling a new tank happen in a generally predictable manner and within a reasonable amount of time, folks like me who write cycling articles will say not tot let the pH drop much under 7.0. If it does and your cycle slows we advise taking counter measures. These can be as simple as a water change or adding crushed coral in a bag or both. These raise the pH and the cycle gets back on its intended track.

When I finally decided to take my shot at keeping Altum angels all of the above was involved. I was getting imported fish which came out of water with almost no TDS and a pH in the 4.0 range. I had a tank close to those conditions. I knew any ammonia in the water would be NH4. Way less harmfull and more easily managed. And I had a clever plan. Over the next 6 months I waould gradually raise the angel tank pH to 6.0. I set up a second tank as a bio-farm where I was fishless cycling filters for ultimate use.

I started it at 7.0 and when it was fully cycled, I dropped the pH by.02. I then added more ammonia and made sure it was cycled for 6.8. I repeated this process until the filters were working at 6.0 water. Each step took about 2-3 week. I wasn't sure when I started it how long it would take, The goal was when the angel tanks reached 6.0 the bio-farm would be work,ing there as well and I would simple move over the filters.

My mistake was not realizing that I did not need to do the bio-farm. The angel tank would self cycle, which it did. The first seller from whom I bought Altums which I picked up from his home had told me his tanks at about 5.0 pH had self cycled. I argue he had to be wrong. He wasn't, I was wrong.

This hobby has a lot of what I call "urban aquarium myths." Many can lead to unwanted results, However, some like the one about a cycle stopping in acid pH is actually a helpful one for new keepers. most os us want to have fish ASAP when we get our first tank. So it helps to be given instructions on fishless or fish in cycling as it is done.

Finally, while it is true that NH4 is way less harmful than NH3, that does not mean that NH4 is harmless. The level it is at and the amounts of time involved matter. It is poosible to determine the amount of NH3 in any sample with measurable TA as long as you know the pH, temp. and salinity of the water involved.

If you want to have some fun running simulations re the above for fresh, brackish or salt water, here is a link to the ammonia calculator I put in this article on the site here https://www.fishforums.net/threads/rescuing-a-fish-in-cycle-gone-wild-part-il.433778/

Edited to add the following:

However, the EPA recommends that public water systems maintain pH levels of between 6.5 and 8.5, a good guide for individual well owners. Water with a low pH can be acidic, naturally soft and corrosive. Acidic water can leach metals from pipes and fixtures, such as copper, lead and zinc.

This is why most municipal water systems want water with a pH that is not acidic,

Most of us on this site likely do not have tap water with a pH lower than 6.5 and few have even that low. So, for most the idea that cycling stalls at 6.5 or below is not really relevant. For new fishkeepers wanting to cycle their first tank in short order, holding the pH at 7 or above during the cycle is fine as long as one knows where it will settle out based on t6heir tap water levels.

And the cycling article here does not state that the cycle stops at 6.0, it says it "appears to stop." It also says it slows as the pH drops under 7.0.
 
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Hello all, I’m back from my holiday @Essjay @TwoTankAmin @jaylach another 3 days an the results below

pH - 7.2
Ammonia - 3
Nitrite - 0

Today is day 11
 

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@CaptainBarnicles @Wills

Thoughts on the above ?
Just to check the 3ppm ammonia 0ppm nitrite is after 24 hours?

If thats just sitting there I think that means the break in cycling might have starved the bacteria you'd grown so far? But it should bounce back faster than what you had to start with.

Wills
 
It sounds normal for a cycle. That's what mine did. The ammonia didn't stay exactly the same before nitrite showed up, probably due to inconsistency in the test (eg the drops not being identical size). Once nitrite appears that'll shoot up pretty fast and ammonia will disappear quickly.
I left my last fishless cycle for a few days to go to a funeral 300 miles away and it carried on as if I was still here.
 
Just to check the 3ppm ammonia 0ppm nitrite is after 24 hours?

If thats just sitting there I think that means the break in cycling might have starved the bacteria you'd grown so far? But it should bounce back faster than what you had to start with.

Wills
I tested last night august 9th (the results I just posted)

I tested 3 days ago (6th) and the result were quite similar to the ones I just

I tested 3 days prior (3rd) and there was some nitrite and the ammonia was higher
 
@Essjay beloq is an accurate record Iv kept
 

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That is the same as my last fishless cycle.

This is how mine went.
Day 1 - start. The next few tests showed no change at all.
Day 16 - trace nitrite, ammonia down slightly
Day 19 - trace nitrite, ammonia same as day 16.
Day 21 - same as day 19
Day 24 - ammonia unchanged, no nitrite
This is when I got frustrated and started testing every 2 days.
Day 26 - ammonia same, hint of nitrite.
Day 28 - ammonia 0.5, nitrite off the top of the scale.
So on day 28 I had ammonia under 0.75 and nitrite over 2 so I was ready to move on to the next stage.
 
That is the same as my last fishless cycle.

This is how mine went.
Day 1 - start. The next few tests showed no change at all.
Day 16 - trace nitrite, ammonia down slightly
Day 19 - trace nitrite, ammonia same as day 16.
Day 21 - same as day 19
Day 24 - ammonia unchanged, no nitrite
This is when I got frustrated and started testing every 2 days.
Day 26 - ammonia same, hint of nitrite.
Day 28 - ammonia 0.5, nitrite off the top of the scale.
So on day 28 I had ammonia under 0.75 and nitrite over 2 so I was ready to move on to the next stage.

That makes me feel a bit better 😂 I guess it’s the waiting game for now! It’s almost like there a sudden shift and it take a while to get there!
 
Once there are enough ammonia eaters, things really take off. Each 1 ppm ammonia is turned into around 2.5 ppm nitrite, which is why nitrite shoots up.
Then we have to wait for the nitrite eaters to get going. They can't start until the ammonia eaters have made nitrite for the nitrite eaters to eat.
 

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