Will my water pass the lfs's tests?

[fishman 1]

ferrikins and jflowers,

You both know your stuff for sure!

CYCLE DOES'NT WORK

I think this is an accurate statement as backed up in the post on the 7th January 12.33am by jflowers.

Details of how you are cycling would help, as I and others have said just leaving a tank running is no good. If you want to cycle with fish then 24-48 hours after setting up put three hardy fish in, a week after, three more and so on. I would highly reccomend getting your own master test kit if doing this or a fishless cycle. I have cycled with fish and lost none, but are they happy fish? I will fishless every time from now on.

The water tests your LFS should be doing are ammonia (produced by fish or added by you), nitrite (produced by the bacteria that process the ammonia once established) and nitrate, often in tap water, but also produced by the bacteria that process nitrite. This is where water changes are important. Nitrate is the least toxic to fish, but still toxic.

I am not saying forget your LFS advice, just dont take it as 100%, they are not letting you buy fish yet, so are better than most.

I agree and cannot see the point in typing it all out again.

The way I cycle new tanks consists of water changing one of my other tanks and adding this water to my new tank which is all up and running. I then clean out one of my filer sponges in tank water (like you are supposed to, to keep the bacteria alive) and when nearly clean I get a 5 litre bucket of tankwater out of the very same tank and give the sponge a final rince. This water (which is now what you could say is dirty) is then added to the tank which I am cycling. This is then followed by a couple of fish to do their bit too (produce waste (ammonia)). This way means that you are adding some bacteria from the filter. This in conjunction with the aged water the day before and the couple of fish gives the bacteria something to live off. Providing everything ok on further tests I gradually add further fish.

If the tank tests show ammonia then the bacteria has not developed. If it tests high on nitrite then I would suggest further water changes and wait for signs of it settling.

 

[ferrikins]

ferrikins and jflowers,

You both know your stuff for sure!

oo thankyou ) ) )

I would'nt say, I as good as some, but I hate to see animals suffer, and hate being ignored

 

[jay2jay99]

ferrikins, do not think I am ignoring you, there is no point me joining this forum if I was to ignore anyone, I take everyones advice through their own there past experiences, that's what's good about talking in a forum, to talk, debate, discuss different views. I too do not want animals to suffer, I am normally very impatient when it comes to things like this, and I'm trying to do this so I do not loose a single fish. I have no experience in this field, I've been to 2 different lfs and said about this forum and asked about ammonia, they have said I just need the Cycle I'm using and to just be patient, now I'm not saying they're right but they were not trying to sell me any products and they would not let me have fish until they were satisfied with the tests on my water. I have looked into ammonia at my local DIY store with no joy, but i've got the whole day tomorrow to look into it. All I'm saying is (and I know there is posts on this) that for a beginner, it's hard with so many opinions, if you take one, you offend another and it's hard to know which way to turn.

Jay.

 

[corykitty516]

Stick with us ....

Oh and it has just been my luck lately ... If you ever loose a fish from a store with a replacement policy it is likely that they will find something off that is not necessarily wrong just so they dont loose money on giving you another fish. Trace nitrates and pH is not 7.0 may be ok but the darn store will still not replace and try to sell you more chemicals.

 

[OohFeeshy]

Lol corykitty that's what i meant . Although when two of my guppies died I took a water sample to my lfs and they said i had high nitrate because it still hadn't cycled (duh! I mean me), but they'd give me two guppies if the next sample was OK, or two Platies if it wasn't. And if it was really bad, a goldfish. He didn't mean to keep, he siad give it to someone with a pond, although Dad was too busy gloating to hear that bit

 

[fishman 1]

I would not go buy any ammonia in a bottle to add.
A couple of hardy cheap fish will produce the levels of ammonia you will require to get the filter going.
Or do you have another tank that is established? Maybe you will be able to use some water out of that to get things moving quicker if you have one.

 

[jflowers]

Just water from another tank will not help a great deal, it may help a little as it will contain a little fish waste. If you do have another tank then why not cut some of the filter sponge off and add to your new tanks filter? That would help much more. Dont unless you can add a section of new sponge to the old filter.

This is where an external filter has advantages, I could simply take a sponge from the old filter and replace with the sponge from the new filter (if the filter has more than one sponge!) I have eheim externals which are very versatile as they have many layers, sponge, ceramics, smaller ceramics, sponge, polyester.

Internals can be treated the same way if they have more than one filter media, i.e. my fluval 4+ has two sponges and a polyester pad. If I was going to start up a new tank with the same filter, I would use one of the two sponges.

Make sense? (did when I typed it)

Jon

 

[fishman 1]

Another way aswell is to use the new filter in the established tank for a couple of weeks and then add it to the new tank with some of the tankwater too as a water change.

 

[Slyspy]

Tank water from an established tank has no benefit to the cycling process. None whatsoever. The bacteria are on the solid items in the tank, especially the filter media but also the substrate and even decorations. Use these to seed the bacteria and add ammonia to start of a fishless cycle.

From my point of view cycling with fish is cruel due to the toxins to which the fish are exposed and even survivors are unlikely to be fully healthy ever again. The fact that certain fish are hardy and cheap does not make it any better. Would you knowingly poison your dog?

Also when cycling with fish the stock must be added slowly whereas a tank cycled with ammonia can be fully stocked all in one go, once the process is complete.

 

[fishman 1]

So your telling me that the best way is to add a bottle of ammonia to a new fish tank? Some how, I dont think so.

You are also saying that running the new filter on an established tank for a week or two will not result in collonisation of bacteria in the new filter. It will happen.

Did you know that the tap water has no ammonia in it and the fish used in the cycling post actually produce the ammonia. Fish can be added to the tap water in the tank when it is up and running providing the water has had a conditioner in it (to remove the toxins you talk about( chlorine, chloramine etc)). There is no high ammonia and nitrite waiting to kill the fish when you put them in the tank. It is the fish waste and by-products that cause the ammonia. Providing you do not put loads of fish in or feed heavy you should not get the levels of ammonia or nitrite go through the roof.

I know the bacteria is not swimming in the water,(!) but if you didn't know, when you wash out filters you are not supposed to do it in fresh water. Having the filter run for a couple of weeks on a stocked tank would mean that the filter would be collonised. Adding the aged water would help to prevent the bacteria dying with all the fresh water in the tank. There would also be waste in the water to feed the bacteria.

As for adding all the fish in one go after cycling with ammonia. This is far from a good idea! Even long established tanks can crash with ammonia and nitrite. It would still be best to add a few at a time. Some species of fish dont like fresh water at all (thats another reason for using mature/aged water from another tank).

 

[Skylar]

I have had a 10 gallon tank for awhile now (about 4 or 5 months, i think) and I never cycled it. Ive had one death (betta) which was most likely from finrot and old age but otherwise, nothing else bad has happened. I am just started to vacuum the tank's gravel. Also, I have never ever ever tested my water because the kits are way expensive and I dont feel like forking out five bucks to get it tested at the LFS. but i do use water conditioner.

I see no purpose in cycling. If my fish have lived through it, anybody else's can.

 

[Phantom Thief]

So your telling me that the best way is to add a bottle of ammonia to a new fish tank? Some how, I dont think so.

You are also saying that running the new filter on an established tank for a week or two will not result in collonisation of bacteria in the new filter. It will happen.

Did you know that the tap water has no ammonia in it and the fish used in the cycling post actually produce the ammonia. Fish can be added to the tap water in the tank when it is up and running providing the water has had a conditioner in it (to remove the toxins you talk about( chlorine, chloramine etc)). There is no high ammonia and nitrite waiting to kill the fish when you put them in the tank. It is the fish waste and by-products that cause the ammonia. Providing you do not put loads of fish in or feed heavy you should not get the levels of ammonia or nitrite go through the roof.

I know the bacteria is not swimming in the water,(!) but if you didn't know, when you wash out filters you are not supposed to do it in fresh water. Having the filter run for a couple of weeks on a stocked tank would mean that the filter would be collonised. Adding the aged water would help to prevent the bacteria dying with all the fresh water in the tank. There would also be waste in the water to feed the bacteria.

As for adding all the fish in one go after cycling with ammonia. This is far from a good idea! Even long established tanks can crash with ammonia and nitrite. It would still be best to add a few at a time. Some species of fish dont like fresh water at all (thats another reason for using mature/aged water from another tank).

The best way to cycle a tank is to add ammonia to it, simulating a fish being in there and producing waste. Instead of subjecting the fish to the new uncycled tank, the tank remains empty and yet gets the good bacteria going.

Yes, the bacteria can and will colonise a filter run on an older tank.

Obviously tap water has no ammonia. Obviously it's not waiting there to kill the fish. Obviously, it's the fish itself which is producing the ammonia and nitrite to kill it. Sure, putting only a small number of fish won't make the ammonia go through the roof, but there will still be a noticable amount of it. Are you saying it won't hurt the fish? Well, let's say i offer you two glasses of water. One is just normal water. The other has poison in it, but hey, not enough to hurt you. Can you tell me in complete honesty you would rather pick the one with the poison over the safe one?

Erm, excuse me, what do you mean by "fresh water"? Any water without salt content can be counted as "fresh water". In case YOU didnt know, there is no problem whatsoever to wash filter media in freshwater, as long as it has no chlorine or chloramine in it.

As for adding aged water to prevent the bacteria from dying from "fresh water", that is absolute crap. The aged water would not have any ammonia and nitrite, because all of it should be processed already by the bacteria already present.

Adding all the fish in one go is not a totally good idea, but you definitely should NOT add only very few fish at each time. Allow me to explain.

When you cycle a tank, you add ammonia, and when it is already cycled, the tank has sufficient bacteria to fully process a large bioload. Adding all the fish in one shot, depending on how much bacteria you have, how much you feed, how messy the fish are, etc, may be too much for the colony to handle. Adding too few fishes would simply make whatever bacteria is there already starve due to the lack of a source of ammonia.

And as to certain species of fish not liking fresh water, once again, absolute crap. As long as the pH, kH and temperature are the same or similar, even the fussiest of fish wouldn't dislike it.

P.T.

edit: the last part of my statement is incorrect, please read cfc's post.

 

[CFC]

Good post PT but one thing to correct.
Some delicate fish do not do well in fresh dechlorinated water and require their water to be aged in a container for at least 24 hours before adding it to the tank, this allows mildly poisonous dissolved gasses present in the water to disperse. Fish that would appear on this list would be some of the more delicate gouarmi species, wild caught Appistogramma, discus, most FW stingrays and some tetras and other wild caught characins ammongst others.

 

[Phantom Thief]

But i'm sure if you are only doing say, a 15% water change, it would be ok?

If not, i stand corrected

P.T.

 

[CFC]

When keeping very delicate expensive species you take no risks, as little as 0.25ppm of a toxin in the water could mean the difference between a tank of live fish and a dustbin full of dead ones.