Why We Should Not Fishless Cycle Planted Tanks.

[theshadowinc]

I go even further than the 2 above and start mine up as I mean to go on. Heavily planted, CO2 at 30ish ppm full ferts, full lights, once a week water change. And as soon as the water is up to temp (within a few hours) the fish, shrimp and snails go straight in. Not a problem. This is with no fast growing stems, just rosettes, rhizomes etc.

I can vouch that this method works, although I had to do research cause I didn't believe it, when I did the research on a cycle of a plant and combining it with Amo, Nitrite and Nitrate I finally understood how it all folded together, my planted tank I took my discuss and through them in right away, although they had to go in quartine for the night cause my filter system crashed ~ thinking because it was setup at night, next day discus went in and no problems since, cept for the discus eating my tetris for a late night snack!

I have seen multiple posts where people are waiting for their planted tank to cycle and immediately I don't bother reading anymore. Far too many old practices creeping back in that just make me want to 'flame'. lol.

LoL! Its cause all the people who say you need to do a fishless cycle havn't learned first hand that you don't need to with a planted take they just assume a fishless cycle is needed cause you are adding fish! Just like when someone makes a Planed tank and doesn't bother to use CO2 and just wants to fert so only feeding the plants half of what they need!, or they Feed it CO2 and not use the right dosage needed for the plants food!(Fertz)

As for adding how to do Non Co2 tanks? With a non Co2 tank you aren't (or at least shouldn't need to be) adding the additional ferts so therefore all the nutrients are coming from the fish/food waste and you can do exactly the same (assuming you are heavily planted.)

My belief system now is, no Co2 well you don't have a true planted tank and reason I said that is many people who have co2 in there tanks see a world of difference when dosage is right! Thicker Stalks and stems and makes them grow like weeds!

When you have a heavily planted tank do you still vac the gravel? I have one tank which I have a lot of plants in and it is a complete b****** to vac. The tank is 2'x1'6"x1' and I have about 40 bunches of plants with approx 5 plants per bunch. Would you say this is heavy, medium or light planting?

Most aquascapers do vac the gravel/sand. Inexperienced planters/scapers should to take away one of the algae risk variables. I don't I just leave it in there but then I benefit from experience .

Well I never vac mine stick a hose in and drain the water out once a week! Only cause before i did and sand is a pain to vac! I remember the talk I had when I asked you about it and you told me you never vac so i decided all the other information you gave me was definitly worth my while to save me time and money etc , I decided to use your method and man makes it easy drain right into the sink and fill it up with cold water! And dose right after!!

Within reason heavily planted means if you look from above how much of the substrate is visible. If it is 25% or less then it is considered heacily planted. Of course this doesn't mean 1 Nymphea where the pads cover 75% of the water surface. However although this wouldn't be considered Heavily Planted it wouldn't suffer too many problems as the pads would reduce the light substantially. lol. Another of those things that come with experience.

Heavily to me is where you look and the substrate you might be able to see maybe 10% of it and the entire top part is all most 100%, usually mean i need to do a trim >< LoL

I would say that approx 25% of my actual substrate is planted, however I have huge amounts of rhizome plants attached to wood/rock. Looking from above you can probably see about 10% of the substrate. It is very heavily planted (Jungle)

about 50% coverd in my tank after a trimming to 75% coverage when all out in bloom, usually taking up the entire surface and growing out after about 4 weeks... again means i need to trim lol, find its the fast steam plants that causes that issues!

Sorry been away on personal family issues and personal issues had to deal with the past few months, I will try to be back a little bit more might want to pick at your brain in wispers lol.
ttyl
~theshadowinc~

 

[SuperColey1]

My belief system now is, no Co2 well you don't have a true planted tank and reason I said that is many people who have co2 in there tanks see a world of difference when dosage is right! Thicker Stalks and stems and makes them grow like weeds!

Thats an opinion as bad as Walstad's 'Aquascapes are landscape paintings in museums'.

I have both a non CO2 setup and a heavily injected pressurised setup. They are both planted tanks!!! IMO

AC

 

[aaronnorth]

I don't get it. So can I just add fish to a heavy planted tank without cycling it? I don't have any CO2 or mulm would it still work?

yes

the CO2 makes plants grow faster, mulm just gives the substrate a boost for bacteria population. Neither is needed, just helps thats all

My belief system now is, no Co2 well you don't have a true planted tank and reason I said that is many people who have co2 in there tanks see a world of difference when dosage is right! Thicker Stalks and stems and makes them grow like weeds!

I am sorry that is a truly ridiculous statement, My bet is quite a few tanks you have looked at dont use CO2, you just cant tell unless they tell you in the specs... Or that you cant tell the difference
All CO2 does is speed up plant growth.

Take a look at some of llj's tanks, one of her most recent tank is already begginning to look great

 

[baron von bubba]

My belief system now is, no Co2 well you don't have a true planted tank and reason I said that is many people who have co2 in there tanks see a world of difference when dosage is right! Thicker Stalks and stems and makes them grow like weeds!

hmmm, i agree with the other guys!
that is a bit of a sweeping statement. its different strokes for different folks...................
if you want a high maintenance tank that NEEDS constant monitoring, trimming/replanting and a large ammount of cash chucked at it then fair enough.
i have one and 5+ inches of growth a week is hard to keep in check sometimes, going on holiday is a nightmare, being hung over on water change day........... its a commitment a lot of ppl wouldnt want or in some cases couldnt have!

i'm currently thinking doing a low tech or NPT because i want to learn the other side of it, different knowledge, techniques , i'm sure i will ultimately will get the same sense of satisfaction when its all "running" correctly.

you wouldnt compare a marathon runner against a 100m sprinter and say only one of them is a true athlete would you??

 

[SuperColey1]

you wouldnt compare a marathon runner against a 100m sprinter and say only one of them is a true athlete would you??

Staying on the theme of athletes I would've said that it is much more satisfying to win without the use performance enhancers

AC

 

[lljdma06]

you wouldnt compare a marathon runner against a 100m sprinter and say only one of them is a true athlete would you??

Staying on the theme of athletes I would've said that it is much more satisfying to win without the use performance enhancers

AC

I agree. See below, no performance enhancing drugs were used in the running of this race.

QUOTE (theshadowinc @ Aug 5 2009, 05:07 AM)
My belief system now is, no Co2 well you don't have a true planted tank and reason I said that is many people who have co2 in there tanks see a world of difference when dosage is right! Thicker Stalks and stems and makes them grow like weeds!

Oh, you did not just say that here! Again, see above. So that is not a planted tank then, eh?

llj

 

[OneOnion]

I don't get it. So can I just add fish to a heavy planted tank without cycling it? I don't have any CO2 or mulm would it still work?

yes

the CO2 makes plants grow faster, mulm just gives the substrate a boost for bacteria population. Neither is needed, just helps thats all

Woohooo!!! That's awesome! Where can I get CO2?

 

[aaronnorth]

So that is not a planted tank then, eh?

one of the best examples to give

Where can I get CO2?

You can use a pressurized system, fermentation system, or liquid carbon. Check out these for more info:

http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=296418

http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=298133

 

[theshadowinc]

Thats an opinion as bad as Walstad's 'Aquascapes are landscape paintings in museums'.

I have both a non CO2 setup and a heavily injected pressurised setup. They are both planted tanks!!! IMO

Now Now! LoL
Carbon dioxide is used by plants during photosynthesis to make sugars, which may either be consumed in respiration or used as the raw material to produce other organic compounds needed for plant growth and development. It is produced during respiration by plants, and by all animals, fungi and Mircroorganisms that depend either directly or indirectly on plants for food. It is thus a major component of the Carbon Cycle.(Also a product known as liquid Co2 many use called florish) I am sure I don't need to remind you of this lmao you taught me this....
So... with this being said I guess co2 isn't an enhancer
(Although for some reason Co2 and Java Moss tend not to agree for me!)

hmmm, i agree with the other guys!
that is a bit of a sweeping statement. its different strokes for different folks...................
if you want a high maintenance tank that NEEDS constant monitoring, trimming/replanting and a large ammount of cash chucked at it then fair enough.

I use to pay 60 for the florish not including the plant food, not including Trace etc...., use to last me 6months 2nd biggest one my closest pet shop has in stock all the time.... sometimes had to special order it,
Co2 Canister 45 bucks filled first time, then the regulator is the expensive part no lie on that one, 150bucks i got one for, last 6 months and costs 15 to refill. so over the course of 2-3 years it pays for itself in the long run now depends where you are are located cause more expensive or even cheaper depending where you are.
2 Bottles a year at 120 x 3 years = 360
Reg 150, Tank 45 and filled, 15 per refill at 3 = 3 years x 30 2 refills a year = 90 + 150 + 45 = 285, now as the years go by the savings add up. So not really an expensive setup.

 

[theshadowinc]

I agree. See below, no performance enhancing drugs were used in the running of this race.

QUOTE (theshadowinc @ Aug 5 2009, 05:07 AM)
My belief system now is, no Co2 well you don't have a true planted tank and reason I said that is many people who have co2 in there tanks see a world of difference when dosage is right! Thicker Stalks and stems and makes them grow like weeds!
Oh, you did not just say that here! Again, see above. So that is not a planted tank then, eh?
llj

Why wouldn't it be I see a diffuser of some sort looks like you are running Co2, on the right hand side a bubble counter maybe??

 

[aaronnorth]

Why wouldn't it be I see a diffuser of some sort looks like you are running Co2, on the right hand side a bubble counter maybe??

if it was that obvious i doubt llj would lie It is just the curved glass causing the distortion

 

[Geoff1991]

I agree. See below, no performance enhancing drugs were used in the running of this race.

QUOTE (theshadowinc @ Aug 5 2009, 05:07 AM)
My belief system now is, no Co2 well you don't have a true planted tank and reason I said that is many people who have co2 in there tanks see a world of difference when dosage is right! Thicker Stalks and stems and makes them grow like weeds!
Oh, you did not just say that here! Again, see above. So that is not a planted tank then, eh?
llj

Why wouldn't it be I see a diffuser of some sort looks like you are running Co2, on the right hand side a bubble counter maybe??

Where are you looking?

 

[aaronnorth]

Where are you looking?

my guess is the distortion, looks a bit like a spiral.

 

[lljdma06]

Why wouldn't it be I see a diffuser of some sort looks like you are running Co2, on the right hand side a bubble counter maybe??

if it was that obvious i doubt llj would lie It is just the curved glass causing the distortion

You are probably spying the two HOB filters. No, this tank did not use CO2 at the time the photo was taken. It set it up in mid-October of 2006. I won't lie, it did run with DIY CO2 for about 2 weeks or so, until late October, then I stopped it. It's membership profile was put up in May of 2007 and it is in the link below.

8g tank specs

So at that time and for most of the life of that scape, no CO2, no ferts. Just platy poop and 2 HOB filters. I'm not kidding. The tank was taken down in December of 2008, so for over 2 years, no CO2, no ferts. The actual tank is being redone as we speak in True Dutch style. It has a complicated story, I apologize.

llj

 

[SuperColey1]

Now Now! LoL
Carbon dioxide is used by plants during photosynthesis to make sugars, which may either be consumed in respiration or used as the raw material to produce other organic compounds needed for plant growth and development. It is produced during respiration by plants, and by all animals, fungi and Mircroorganisms that depend either directly or indirectly on plants for food. It is thus a major component of the Carbon Cycle.(Also a product known as liquid Co2 many use called florish) I am sure I don't need to remind you of this lmao you taught me this....
So... with this being said I guess co2 isn't an enhancer

If you add something that wouldn't naturally be there (namely very high CO2 when it would naturally be pretty low) then you have enhanced it. I do both. lol. I was just commenting on the statement that if you don't inject CO2 it isn't a planted tank. lol.

There was an argument a while back that you had to have a certain amount of plants/percentage of substrate covered to be a planted tank to which I replied if there is only one real plant in the tank then it is planted. CO2/Ferts etc are nothing to do with it. lol. Its like saying unless you use composts and fertilisers your 'outside area with plants in it' is not a garden which of course is just silly

I use nothing in my garden and it is a garden. I use CO2 and ferts in one tank and neither in the other tank and they are both planted tanks

AC