White Cloud Mountain Minnows

[fisharepeopletoo]

I have 4 white clouds (1m:3F) in my 16 gal community tank with 4 neons (1M:3F), a dwarf gourami (M), and a pygmy corydoras. All get along fine, but recently all three of my white cloud females have gotten quite a bit more pudgy. The white-est part of their underbellies seems swollen. Is it more likely that they are they full of eggs, being overfed, or sick? Any help would be appreciated. Also, if anyone has a pic of a WC that IS preggo, could you post it?

(This is an established tank- a year plus now)

 

[stang1]

Does it look like this?

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

WCMM's are egg layers, not livebearers, so technically she would be egg-laden and not pregnant. It is posible to tell the difference between males and females, although it can be difficult.
This pic shows two heavily egg laden females;

http/www.howard.k12.md.us/res/aquariums/whclmounmin.jpeg

Males are generally slimer and have flashier lower fins (when they fight or display to the females, they extend their lower fin, which usually has a golden/metallic edging to it, to show it off to the females and impress them).

If your WCMM female does not look like the ones in the pic (like her stomach is bulging un-evenly on each side or her scales are sticking out or her stomach seems red or inflamed etc), then other issues could be the cause of the swelling (like dropsy or constipation). However, it is most likely that she is just full of eggs.
ps: Your group of WCMM's is very small since these fish like to shoal, you really need to have a minimum of 6 WCMM's rather than 4)

 

[fisharepeopletoo]

Thanks for the pics. I think they are full of eggs. How long do they typically stay like this? Any tips for getting them to spawn?

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Thanks for the pics. I think they are full of eggs. How long do they typically stay like this? Any tips for getting them to spawn?

Once females are full of eggs, even if they spawn, sometimes they never lose their egg-laden look.
Spawning is usually encouraged by lots of cool, small water changes and changing the planting and substrate of the tank habitat to suit the WCMM's needs and reflect their natural environment .
A mix of sand, gravel and pebble substrate is good, with lots of patchs of dense planting consisting of large, small-leaved dense growing plants. Strong filtration is also a must since these are sub-tropical river fish and do best in a highly oxygenated environment- because you have these fish in a tropical community tank set up though, it is unlikely you will be able to spawn them successfully.
A lot of people keep WCMM's in tropical community tanks not knowing that these fish do far better in much cooler tropical temps than what most tropical fish prefer (around 19-23 degree's) and need a highly oxygenated tank to live out their maximum life expectancy the best. In the wild you would see these fish in cool, fast flowing moutain streams, and not the humid, warm and gentle current type of habitat that most tropical aquariums offer.

If you want to spawn them successfully or give them a much better environment to live in general, i would advise setting them up their own 15gallon sub-tropical tank and increase their shoal size to around 6-7 or more. There are a lot of sub tropical fish out there if you are interested in setting up such a tank as well- most danio's, a lot of types of corys, fish like bloodfin tetras and hillstream loaches, weather loaches etc are all sub-tropical .

 

[mikev]

Hi, Tokis

Thank you for the explanation.

As it happens, I have six of WCMM's in a hillstream tank (high O2, current, temp around 75F), and three of them recently got gravid. Not to the degree shown on the pictures yet, but it is getting there.

Mostly gravel. Planting I guess is all wrong for them: swords and Java Fern (large leaves are better for the hillstreams).... should I add something, and if so, what?

Any other suggestions?

TIA

 

[highfire]

Hey, glad I stumbled across this topic.
One of my WCMMs looks exactly like the picture and has done for a few weeks. I was a little concerned at first, but the fish is otherwise extremely healthy and active, so I thought it must be eggs.

 

[puddle_inc]

i have 5 bass minnows i've had for about a year or so now. i've managed to actually breed them and they are staying the size of a minnow. anyway, one of my minnows, the one with a deformed tail problem from birth, had a big belly, and i couldn't wait to see her actually have babies, seeing that i thought she never could because of her deformation. turned out it wasn't eggs, she died the next day. i have no idea what happened either.

so if your minnows are a type that lays eggs, find out what color there eggs will be and see if there belly has any of that color in it.

as for my deformed bass minnow, R.I.P.

hope yours either has babies or gets better, good luck!

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Hi, Tokis

Thank you for the explanation.

As it happens, I have six of WCMM's in a hillstream tank (high O2, current, temp around 75F), and three of them recently got gravid. Not to the degree shown on the pictures yet, but it is getting there.

Mostly gravel. Planting I guess is all wrong for them: swords and Java Fern (large leaves are better for the hillstreams).... should I add something, and if so, what?

Any other suggestions?

TIA

If you want to breed them, then the type of planting you have is very important, however if you have no intention of breeding them then most planting is fine with WCMM's as long as it offers some degree of protection/hiding places for the fish and doesn't take over the entire tank.
Because WCMM's lay often their eggs amoungst the leaves of plants, having places with small leaves which grow densely are the best as these will offer the most protection to the eggs and reflect the types of plants that the WCMM's would usually lay their eggs on.

As far as the substrate is concerned, having a mix of different sorts substrate is best as this will reflect the type of substrate you would find in a fast flowing river of stream the best. A mix of medium sized pebbles, some large rounded rocks, fine sand and smooth gravel is excellant. Place the rocks, sand and gravel in a way that would usually be found in streams/rivers. You can look at pics of natural river or stream beds to give you inspiration to the layout of your substrate, for example;

Moutain steam;

http/www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview...tain_stream.jpg

A hill stream in china (pic is small);

http/photos.photosig.com/photos/52/07/1170752-thumb.jpg

Rocks and gravel;

http/www.alanadamsphotography.com/Stones...ed%20_imgPg.jpg

etc..

WCMM's are found in China and Vietnam, they are technically extinct the wild as far as i know, however in 2003 a wild population was apparently re-discovered in an agricultural area fed by moutain streams in the qiuling region in the guangdong province in china.

The hillstream loaches will really appreciate some large rounded rocks in the tank which are placed in the tank where the current is strongest. Hillstream loaches, like oto's, thrive best off a fresh algae diet. You can get a rock and put it in a jar of water on a window sill or under a strong light to grow algae on the rock, and then put the rock in the tank for your loaches to feast on the algae growing on the rock .

Frozen or live bloodworms or mosquito larvae are great for conditioning WCMM's for breeding as well.

 

[mikev]

Thanks, Tokis!

Lots of good info.

Sorry, I did not make it clear: the tank has the stones and driftwood, so the lower-level inhabitants are ok. A couple of them shown:



(The fellow on the left is from S. China, one on the right is from Vietnam.)

I cannot use sand because of the undegravel filter, it will ruin the powerhead.

I would not mind too much if they breed, since the tank has some dither space, and there are a couple of other tanks without dither at all. But more importantly, perhaps they can induce other fish into spawning.

They should be quite conditioned since they get either frozen shrimp or bloodworms or both daily; despite all my efforts to redirect all the good food to loaches below, they manage to grab most of it.

So I guess the problem is either the plants or they simply did not get to spawning yet (they were pretty small originally and I noticed the signs of gravidity only a month ago).

If plants: anything particular you recommend? (Has to survive the current, and the undergravel filter that prevents putting flower base)

---

Append. Here is how they look here now:



I assume the top one is a male.