What's the best combination?

[777james777]

To be honest, with a KH as low as yours (0.7dKH) even water changes won't put much KH back in so I'd use bicarbonate of soda during cycling.
And don't worry about once you have fish. We have members who use pure water with no KH, and members like Byron who have even less hardness and KH than you in their tap water. They have no problems with low pH as long as they keep fish which come from soft water.

If I have such soft water how come my PH was so so high today?

 

[Essjay]

Your pH test was high today because of all that ammonia in there. When the cycle has finished, even with fish in the tank there will be no detectable ammonia because the bacteria (and plants if you put them in) will remove it as soon as the fish excrete it. Nitrite will also be undetectable because the second bacteria remove it as soon as the first bacteria make it. That's what fishless cycling is about, growing enough bacteria to deal with the ammonia and nitrite before there are fish.
Once you have enough bacteria to remove all the ammonia you've added, there will be nitrite and nitrate in the water and they'll push the pH down.

The second bacteria poop nitrate and nothing removes that in a fish tank. We have to remove it by doing weekly water changes. Because we add tap water, dechlorinated tap water, as part of a water change, the closer the tank water is to tap water, the better. If tank and tap water are different by lots of things dissolved in tank water, it can shock the fish and harm them.
Besides nitrate, all sorts of other things excreted by the fish build up in the water between water changes and they also have to be removed or they make the tank water different from tap water. I used to work in a hospital lab and you'd be amazed the things we tested urine for. Fish 'pee' similar things into the tank water so if we don't do water changes they are swimming in their toilet

 

[777james777]

Your pH test was high today because of all that ammonia in there. When the cycle has finished, even with fish in the tank there will be no detectable ammonia because the bacteria (and plants if you put them in) will remove it as soon as the fish excrete it. Nitrite will also be undetectable because the second bacteria remove it as soon as the first bacteria make it. That's what fishless cycling is about, growing enough bacteria to deal with the ammonia and nitrite before there are fish.
Once you have enough bacteria to remove all the ammonia you've added, there will be nitrite and nitrate in the water and they'll push the pH down.
A

I see, I didn’t realise that the ammonia affects the PH level. I must have missed that in recent posts.

You mention that the fishless cycle, means that no immonia and nitrite is detectable. I get this because it has “turned into” nitrate.

We’re my confusion lies is if we have a tank with nitrate (which we wanted) why do we empty it all out ?

Is it because we don’t empty all of the water out (we empty a certain amount) and leave some so the water that is left has enough nitrate in there for the process to continue ? Sorry if this is repetitive

 

[Wills]

You empty the nitrate out because it is harmful to fish in the long term - its the end stage of the nitrogen cycle, though in nature there are processes that reduce it to pure nitrogen which evaporates out of the water. But in a tank it just builds unless you do water changes, have terrestrial plants to use it as food or some kinds of chemical filtration (sometimes all three are necessary).

You do the big water change to get rid of the fishlessly generated nitrate so that when you add the fish in the ammonia they produce will be processed by the bacteria you've been growing.

Wills

 

[777james777]

You empty the nitrate out because it is harmful to fish in the long term - its the end stage of the nitrogen cycle, though in nature there are processes that reduce it to pure nitrogen which evaporates out of the water. But in a tank it just builds unless you do water changes, have terrestrial plants to use it as food or some kinds of chemical filtration (sometimes all three are necessary).

You do the big water change to get rid of the fishlessly generated nitrate so that when you add the fish in the ammonia they produce will be processed by the bacteria you've been growing.

Wills

I’m so sorry but I still don’t understand (I know everything your saying is correct) it’s just me getting my head around it.

We are doing this cycle right… and then the final step of the cycle is to empty it all out and put tap water in… which is what we started with? That’s what’s confusing me

To simplify my thought process -

Why am I adding ammonia for it to turn to nitrite for it to turn to nitrate to then…

Empty it all and put tap water in?

(I hope I’m not coming across as rude, I’m just confused)

 

[Wills]

No don't worry its not rude love the effort you are putting in!

The cycle when you have fish in the tank goes like this and is inevitable once your filter has the bacteria colony in.

• Fish food
• Fish poop
• Ammonia
• Nitrite
• Nitrate

Our job is to keep ammonia, nitrite and nitrate at 0 or close to it for nitrate. Ammonia and nitrite are dealt with by the bacteria in your filter that you are growing now but we need to take extra steps to get rid of nitrate. Nitrate is still toxic to fish but not immediately so we have time to keep them healthy and act by doing the water changes.

In the initial weeks of owning a tank in a fishless or fish in cycle you are focusing on ammonia and nitrites constantly which is why right now they seem so important but a few months down the line you'll be focusing more on the nitrates than anything else as the ammonia and nitrites will be dealt with constantly by your filter.

One thing to check in the UK is your tap water nitrate - not uncommon for it to be up at about 40ppm which is a tough card to be dealt but not impossible to deal with, I will need to introduce you to house plants though

Wills

 

[CaptainBarnicles]

You're not coming across as rude at all! Let me see if I can break it down further for you...

The bacteria we're trying to grow through cycling the tank live on all the surfaces, not in the water. When we get to the Nitrate stage, this indicates that we have reached the end and completed the cycle. Nitrate is still toxic but slightly less so. As the beneficial bacteria continue to convert the ammonia (that will from then on be produced by the fish) to nitrite and then Nitrate, we will need to do regular weekly water changes with dechlorinated tap water to dilute the Nitrates that are building up in the aquarium. No other bacteria etc will grow to convert Nitrate, it can only be removed by water changes.

So when your tank has completed its cycle, the Nitrate level will be extremely high and dangerous to fish. This is normal. We then change out the water to get that Nitrate level down to as close to 0 as we can before we add fish. Our beneficial bacteria will stay behind on the surfaces in the tank, in the gravel and sand and in the filter media. When you add your fish, they will immediately start producing ammonia...which will be converted to nitrite...then Nitrate. The Nitrate will continue to build in the water until you dilute it again with your next weekly water change. The aim is to keep Nitrate levels under 20ppm at all times which we achieve by doing big water changes every week....make sense?

 

[CaptainBarnicles]

Hope this helps

 

[777james777]

@Wills @CaptainBarnicles

Yes, the penny has dropped I completely understand it now, that your for the explanations.
I think what was confusing me was the thought of removing everything when you do the big water change. But it all stays attached to the surfaces.
I will read few it probably another few times just to recap myself but yes that all makes sense! -

Another random question - what happens if there’s a power cut and the heater goes off?
Say I was away for the night….

 

[Wills]

@Wills @CaptainBarnicles

Yes, the penny has dropped I completely understand it now, that your for the explanations.
I think what was confusing me was the thought of removing everything when you do the big water change. But it all stays attached to the surfaces.
I will read few it probably another few times just to recap myself but yes that all makes sense! -

Another random question - what happens if there’s a power cut and the heater goes off?
Say I was away for the night….

No probs and yes thats right all the bacteria that deals with the chemicals in the water are attached to surfaces in the tank and in your filter.

In terms of power cuts not too much you can do if you are away. Water holds its temperature a bit better than air so if its off for a few hours you'd likely be fine but if it goes out all night (which in the UK is pretty rare) some fish would likely struggle, it could bring out whitespot and some might die (to put it bluntly) but when fish have been in a tank a while and settled they are pretty resilient, sometimes surprisingly so! If you are home and theres a long power cut (and its cold outside) put blankets and duvets over the tank to keep it insulated.

But yeah heater malfunction or power cuts are very rare but certainly can be catastrophic if they happen.

Wills

 

[777james777]

No probs and yes thats right all the bacteria that deals with the chemicals in the water are attached to surfaces in the tank and in your filter.

In terms of power cuts not too much you can do if you are away. Water holds its temperature a bit better than air so if its off for a few hours you'd likely be fine but if it goes out all night (which in the UK is pretty rare) some fish would likely struggle, it could bring out whitespot and some might die (to put it bluntly) but when fish have been in a tank a while and settled they are pretty resilient, sometimes surprisingly so! If you are home and theres a long power cut (and its cold outside) put blankets and duvets over the tank to keep it insulated.

But yeah heater malfunction or power cuts are very rare but certainly can be catastrophic if they happen.

Wills

If there had been a power cut for a good number of hours.... Could you put warm water in the tank? Or perhaps better so, boiling water (mixed with cold first) just to perhaps warm it up abit, obviously evenly spread so as not to harm them?

 

[Essjay]

If you have the means to heat water! If you have a gas hob, yes you could heat water in a pan and use that to do a water change with warm water. But if you don't have a gas hob, you can't heat water as nothing else would work - kettle, boiler etc need electricity.

As Wills said, long power cuts are not common in the UK. OK, things like Storm Arwen left some areas without electricity for days, but I think I'd have more to worry about than my fish in that situation.

 

[777james777]

If you have the means to heat water! If you have a gas hob, yes you could heat water in a pan and use that to do a water change with warm water. But if you don't have a gas hob, you can't heat water as nothing else would work - kettle, boiler etc need electricity.

As Wills said, long power cuts are not common in the UK. OK, things like Storm Arwen left some areas without electricity for days, but I think I'd have more to worry about than my fish in that situation.

oh yes of course, the hob would be the only way, and even then you would need a lighter to create the spark. Yes that is true they are uncommon especially for long periods of time!

 

[CaptainBarnicles]

Today is fish day! You've decided on
• Neons

What else has tickled your fancy?

 

[777james777]

@CaptainBarnicles @Essjay I DONT KNOW!!

Definitely a school of tetras 15
Dwarf cichilds (a male and female)
I’d like to get to other types

Honeys (not today but when the plants have grown)

Corys ? Do I have to be careful to not get a certain type (the grow huge?)

I will be at the shop at 10 so any suggestions welcome! Im not to fussed what just something that will be happy in there with it’s mates
I want variety