What should I do now ?

[janedee]

After posting on the emergency thread, I now feel able to post on here to ask what I should be doing now. To summarise, the tank is new (from a friend but used a long while ago), with old used stones and gravel, new plants and soaked bogwood.

The fish were dying away very rapidly - tests at the LFS showd a ph of 8, amonia of 4.0 and nitrite of 4.0 !!! I did a rapid 40% water change, de-chlorinated the water first. Then added salt over a two hour period. Also added Stess Zyme.

The tank (10 gallons?) is stocked now only with 5 zebras, 1 female guppy, 1 catfish and 1 male siamese fighter. I understand that I was bady informed as to stock choice but this is what we have left - I obviously wont be getting any more fish until the system is stable.

I would like to fully understand the process here. I have read the fishless cycling thread - very interesting and am saddened that I didnt read it before I got my fish into thsi mess.

However, I have bought a testing kit and tested about 1 hour after the water change. The ph is 7.5, cannot get an ammonia read at all, i.e. it is clear - does this mean I have a reading of nil or that it isnt working? The nitrites level has gone down from 4 to 2.0 - still way too high. Nitrates level is like the amonia, non readable - just clear liquid.

As I understand it, amonia is presnt from the waste of my fish, plus any rotting food, dead fish etc - all dead fish removed as soon as noticed and not overfed. I am assuming that the water change plus salt has removed the amonia to nil for the time being, but that as the fish produce more waste, this will be turned into more amonia.

From there, I have a zero reading of nitrates, as I understand it, bacteria etc is needed to turn the nitrite into nitrate (not harmful in low doses??).

So, I have got rid of the amonia (for the time being), but obviously havent got enough of the righ sorts of bacteria to get it from nitrite to nitrate yet. Is this just a matter of time or is there something else that I can be doing?

What else can I expect to happen in this cycle? I have been told to water change 40% a day - until the balance is right. Is that correct?

I apologise for the questions but am very worried and want to do everything I can to make sure I dont ever have to see another fish suffer in my tank like I have done over the past 2 days.

Jane x

 

[BuntbarschXXL]

Hi.

Here an explanation of the nitrogen circle:

Organic mass (fish, plants, food etc) contains nitrogen (in proteins). When this organic mass is decomposed, the nitrogen gets free in form of amminia (NH3) or ammonium (NH4). Below a ph of 7,0 there will be the in low concentrations harmless ammonium, above ph 7,0 there will be the toxic ammonia.
A bacteria called nitrosomonas gets her energy by turning NH4 or NH3 into the toxic nitrite (NO2). This process is called nitrification. There is another nitrification by nitrobacter to the harmless nitrate (NO3). Plants absorb it in order to build new organic mass- the circle starts again.

(There could also be an denitrification from NO3 => NO2 => NH3/4. However, this only happens under anaerobic conditions which aren't in an aquarium.)

When cycling a tank, th first thing is ammonium. Because it's the "food" for nitrosomonas, they can reproduce themselves and build colonies. The product of their metabolism, nitrite, accumulates in the tank because there aren't enough nitrobacter to turn it into nitrate. The result is the nitrite peak. Now the nitrobacter have enough food to reproduce themselves and turn the nitrite directly after it's production into nitrate, so that it can't accumulate anymore.


In your case, probably the bacteria in the filter died because it was inactive some hours (they need oxygen- when the filter is inactive soon all oxygen in it is stale and the bacteria die).
There are also bacteria in the tank, but not enough. They have to resettle in the filter which takes a while- your tank is cycling at the moment.
This means changing water, changing water and changing water. In n ideal case, you have to change so much water that the nitrite concentration stays below 1,0mg/l.

I hope I was a help.

 

[a1wonder]

40% a day water changes seems like a bit to much as I belive your going to continue to restart your cycle everytime you do this. I'd say go with 10-20% a day. Also what time of cat fish do you have? If it's a cory then it will not do well in the salt you added to the water as it is scaleless fish. Your PH level is a bit high as well for thoughs particular fish, but that is not really very important in comparison to ammonia and nitrite. I would also suggest heading to your local petstore and perhapes see if they carry a product like benefical bateria starter. Some say this stuff works some say it doesn't (has worked for me to keep the ammonia levels down durning my with fish cycling accident a while back). Not all shops carry it so I suggest calling first and saving yourself the trip. Best of luck with your fish you sound like your on the right track

 

[BuntbarschXXL]

40% a day water changes seems like a bit to much as I belive your going to continue to restart your cycle everytime you do this

Hello.

No, you don't restart a cycle. There are only 10% of all bacteria in the free water, the rest is in the filter and in the substrate on the floor.
So the bacteria you are taking away by changing water are not important.

Changing only 10-20% or even 50%+ a day wouldn't make a big difference according to the bacteria. However, it makes a difference according to the nitrite concentration in the tank....

I would also suggest heading to your local petstore and perhapes see if they carry a product like benefical bateria starter.

This bacteria starter may shorten the cycling some days. All you do is adding some bacteria to your tank which means having a bigger starting population.
Usually i'm against this stuff because it's a waste of money, but in this case it could be a little help.

 

[bigfish]

I use Nutrafin Cycle which i add to my water, i find it very good and extreemly useful. I also have used the bacteria culture made by Interpet Bio Trisym or sumfin. Thats quite good but you get loads of floaty bits so i tend to go for the cycle as it is a liquid.

HTH

Just keep up the regular partical water changes to dilute the nitrite level down. Nitrite affects the delicate membranes inside the gill which affects the fish in taking in oxygen.

 

[janedee]

Thanks very much for the posts. I have used some Stress Zyme which apparently contains 300 million live bacteria per teaspoonful. The LFS said that this should help the biological filter. Is that enough or should I be using other stuff too?

I am not sure how panicky I should be here? As the nitrite level was still 2.0 after my water change, I was wondering if I should wait until tomorrow to do another water change or maybe do it this evening? How quickly will the nitrite build up at this early stage in the tank cycle? The last thing I want is for it to build up overnight to a critical level again when I am not there to monitor it.

 

[BuntbarschXXL]

I am not sure how panicky I should be here? As the nitrite level was still 2.0 after my water change, I was wondering if I should wait until tomorrow to do another water change or maybe do it this evening?

Hi.

It's better to change more water to get the nitrite as low as you can.
2,0 mg/l is still too much.
What do the fish do? Are they hanging at the water surface and gasping?
If you have got one, an air pump can be useful.
Oh, I forgot one thing: Also try to get some mud from a filter of a cycled tank- it contains lots of bacteria. This is much better than the starting bacteria you can buy because in the mud are full-developed bacteria, in the stuff you can buy usually are cysts which need a while to develop.

 

[janedee]

Ok - have changed the water again - amonia still nil and nitrite now down to 0.25. Still too high - I just dont know how often I should be changing the water. Is it worth me doing a tap test?

The fish seem fine - they are not lethargic any more and certainly not gasping for air. The fighter still seems a bit off colour - not sure how much damage was done to him while the levels were so dangerously high.

I dont plan to feed them tonight - have been told that will just send the amonia levels up again - better to leave them for another 24 hours - is that right?

There seems to be good aereation in the tank, with the a good flow as the water is pumped round.

I am waiting for my inlaws to get home to see if I can go over and get some stuff from their filter.

I never knew this fish business could be so worrying - worse than giving biorth lol lol

 

[BuntbarschXXL]

Hello.

0,25 is still a little bit high, but not very dangerous. If you can keep it on this level until your tank is cycled, it's ok.
A tap test will have a low result. The limit value for drinking water here in germany is 0,1.

I dont plan to feed them tonight - have been told that will just send the amonia levels up again - better to leave them for another 24 hours - is that right?

That's right.

I never knew this fish business could be so worrying - worse than giving biorth lol lol

Yes, but don't worry. Nearly everbody who has an aquarium made some grave mistakes in the beginning, me too.

The problem usually are the dealers in the fish stores. Most people trust them. However, they often have not the faintest idea of their subject. Another fact is that they want to sell their stuff, so they tout products the clients don't need, tell them nothing about cycling and water parameters and sell too much fish for the tank.