Warehouses Fishless Cycling Log

[waterdrop]

So Warehouse, you are officially in the 2nd stage (the "nitrite spike" stage) now that the spike has hit of course and also because ammonia is not solidly down to zero in 24 hours and even faster than that.

As you may know, one of the "tweaks" to fishless cycling that oldman47 and I introduced in a sort of experimental way, as all these things are, was to suggest that we try reducing the dosing to 2-3ppm (instead of 4-5ppm) during this second phase (but remembering to plan to raise it back to 4-5ppm for the final 3rd phase.)

Our "theory" was as follows: We know that once the A-Bacs have reached a size to cause the nitrite spike, they can maintain their colony strength on a lower dose. Meanwhile, because they produce 2.7ppm nitrite(NO2) for every 1ppm of ammonia(NH3) they will continue to "feed the spike" sufficiently, regardless of whether they receive 2ppm or 5ppm and the smaller N-Bac population will have more than enough NO2 to stimulate them to greater colony size. Meanwhile, all of the NO2 that the N-Bacs can process is becoming nitrate(NO3) and building up in the tank. Because the NO3 is dissolved in water, I believe on average about 7% of it will be in the Nitric Acid form and will be the main force potentially driving pH downward (if there is insufficient KH counter it of course) and, also importantly, causing the N-Bacs to slow their colony development (per Hovanec.)

It therefor made sense, we felt, to stave off the ballooning of NO3 as long as possible, so that we'd minimize the lowering of N-Bac growth rate but we'd also avoid the inevitable large water change (with it's attendant "pause" in bacterial activity) as long as possibe. Whether this really helps us get a bit of shortening of the overall time remains to be seen and for my part I'm still watching the cases and making a mental tally as it were. The downside, as with most tweaks, is that it adds complication to the description to beginners of what to do! Anyway, you're at the stage where you could lower dosing a bit.

~~waterdrop~~
ps. GVG, if you see this it might help answer the question for your DO/Don't Do write-up that we were talking about.

 

[Warehouse]

Day 41: Ammonia = 0 Nitrite = 5 PH = 7.6 PH High = 8.2 (dosed to 5ppm Ammonia)
Day 42: Ammonia = 0 Nitrite = 5 PH = 7.6 PH High = 7.8 (dosed to 3ppm Ammonia) (added 1 teaspoon of Bicarbonate of Soda)

Thanks for that Waterdrop, I totally forgot that part of the cycling guide, (worth reading over now and again). I've dosed to 3ppm tonight as what you've said makes perfect sense. As long as the A-Bacs are going to stay strong then yes, why have so many Nitrites hanging about. Strangely enough the PH has started to drop again, (backing up your theory), so I also added another spoonfull of bicarbinate of soda, (I'll need another pot at this rate).

The tank is taking on some strange colours now. There is brown algae in numbers, and some strange green stuff appearing on the sand. The plants appear to be doing well though none of us has seen our hitchinking snail for a few days! I can't wait for the big waterchange and a chance to vac it all out.

 

[Tizer]

i have brown algae in my tank on the java fern leaves, not much you can do about it appart from giving them a bit of a rub when you do the weekly water change, once the tank has been going a few months im hoping it will clear off!

 

[waterdrop]

Your main (more or less "only" since ammonia is present) control against algae during the fishless cycle is light control. The most powerful control is to do a "bare-tank, blacked-out" fishless cycle where you wrap the tank in black plastic, but of course most family situations don't go well with that.

Vascular (non-algae) plants need about 4 hours minimum of light to get their processes going and make enough sugars for the light period to be beneficial to them. So any light period less than 4 hours only benefits the algae for the most part. On the other hand choosing 4, 5, 6, 7 hours (instead of 8, 10, 12 like many people do) give you the power to fight against excessive algae.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Warehouse]

but of course most family situations don't go well with that.

That's the problem with fishless cycling in a nutshell. We purchased and setup the tank in early February, and at the time the kids were excited about getting the fish in a week later, as the nice people at the LFS had told us. A month and a half later they don't take any notice of the tank anymore and seem resigned to the fact that "Daddy's Project" is just going on and on and on. Obviously I'm going to see it through, but I have to honestly say that fishless cycling is most definately NOT the way to introduce young people to the hobby. Now the excitement is gone, I really wonder if the kids will even notice when the fish are introduced?

Hand on heart, I can say that if I knew then what I know now I'd have gone for a "fish in cycle" and the work it involves rather than the "fishless cycle" if kids are involved.

 

[Warehouse]

Day 43: Ammonia 0 Nitrite 2 PH 7.6 PH High 8.2

Something always seems to happen after the bicarbinate of soda goes in. This time it's the Nitrites starting to come down again. Redosed to 3ppm Ammonia.

 

[waterdrop]

but of course most family situations don't go well with that.

That's the problem with fishless cycling in a nutshell. We purchased and setup the tank in early February, and at the time the kids were excited about getting the fish in a week later, as the nice people at the LFS had told us. A month and a half later they don't take any notice of the tank anymore and seem resigned to the fact that "Daddy's Project" is just going on and on and on. Obviously I'm going to see it through, but I have to honestly say that fishless cycling is most definately NOT the way to introduce young people to the hobby. Now the excitement is gone, I really wonder if the kids will even notice when the fish are introduced?

Hand on heart, I can say that if I knew then what I know now I'd have gone for a "fish in cycle" and the work it involves rather than the "fishless cycle" if kids are involved.

Yeah, I know what you mean. If you "kept a log, lol" of some of those big gifts received at holidays, I wonder if you'd find rather short attention periods too. It's the nature of the vast number of things that young people must absorb that the most efficient process for them is to sample everything around them for short periods. One of the other difficult things about the aquarium hobby is that very young people learn a lot via touch and this puts wet pets at a disadvantage of course. Don't you think the interactions vary a lot with the ages of children too? I find the very thing of them moving from thing to thing and topic to topic brings them back to the tank when something changes or when I dream up some art or science project approach to what's going on (I've had little ones draw colorful pictures of bacteria or big diagrams of the nitrogen cycle!) One interesting thing though about perhaps age 10 on through teen I've found is that if you take something seriously and have worked on it a lot then it's surprising sometimes how they've noticed that without you realizing it. It can also be surprising how many of the details they've absorbed. Sure, there's entertainment value in watching colorful fish swim about, but if you can get a child to invest time and energy participating in care and maintenance then eventually there will be a whole lot more going on for them. But I know firsthand that it's hard.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Warehouse]

Day 44: Ammonia 0 Nitrite 0 PH 7.6 PH High 8.2

A little under dosing of the Ammonia as recommended by Waterdrop has done the trick, and the Nitrite test is now a clear blue! Dosed back up to 5ppm Ammonia and will take tomorrows tests with huge interest! Dropped lighting to 6 hours as recommended above also.

 

[Warehouse]

45 long hard days and we finally have a 24 hour double zero .

Ammonia 0 Nitrite 0 PH 7.6 PH High 8.2

Re-dosed to 5ppm Ammonia.

I'm not going to start 12 hour testing until next week. We go away on Friday morning, back Sunday night so the lack of Ammonia might upset the poor little bacteria. Well that's what you get for making me wait 45 days!!! Only joking, I'll dose the 5ppm on Friday morning then again on Sunday afternoon when we get back, should be fine!!

 

[Warehouse]

Day 46: Ammonia 0 Nitrite 0.25 PH 7.6 PH High 8.2

Didn't re-dose as we're off for a long weekend in the morning, so I've put a few fish flakes in tonight, then will re-dose to 5ppm Ammonia in the morning just before we set off. Hopefully all will be happy when we get back on Sunday afternoon.

Saw a tiny baby snail today. Kids are delighted, me not so. I'll deal with it when I need to but it's keeping the kids looking at the tank so I'll put up with them for now. Cleaned the glass inside, pulled a bit of algae of the plants and surfaces and removed some dead plant bits. The plants do actually appear to be thriving. Hopefully early next week we'll be on 12 hour testing, and if all goes well I'd like fish in there at least a week before my Birthday on the 22nd April. We shall see.

 

[Warehouse]

Back from the long weekend. I dosed to 5ppm on Friday morning, (Day 47), nothing yesterday, (Day 48), and another 5ppm at about 5pm today. No testing carried out.

There are 2 issues on my return.

1. The snail population is growing fast. I counted at least 10 small snails.
2. A very small very white worm type thing on the glass. So small I can't even get a picture of it. What is it and is it a problem?

 

[Tizer]

i cant recall, have you put any plants in there yet? if you buy them from a lfs like maidenhead aquatics or P@H then you need to spend ages washing them to be sure there are no snails

uncertain what the white worm could be without a pic but a wild guess would be Planaria. They often appear if there is a lot of uneaten food in the tank, but with yours being fish free...im not too sure. The important thing with Planaria is not to over react. Give the tank a good scrub and your first lot of fish might find them a tastey snack. If they dont disappear, there is a treatment you can use (with fish in the tank), just make sure you read the instructions, unlike some other lad on here, who managed to wipe out all his fish. last resort would be the use of salt, imo. Have a google around, tiz what i did when i thought i had some.

 

[waterdrop]

In both my direct experience and in the experience of many TFF articles I've read, Planaria are no problem at all. They are harmless and just go away on their own eventually. They often happen during fishless cycling and are gone before fish. If they lasted in to the time when fish were there the fish would be delighted to eat them!

Your fishless cycle should soon get back to it's good pattern, if it hasn't stayed that way through the weekend.

WD

 

[Warehouse]

Thanks Tizer and Waterdrop, no action it is. I'll wait until after the fish are in and see what happens.

Day 50: Ammonia 0 Nitrite 5 PH 7.6 PH High 8.2

It would appear the Nitrite munchers have suffered and the Ammonia munchers have not. Tonight I re-dosed to 3ppm until the N bacs catch up again.
Snail population is booming, they are now officially everywhere and growing fast. Algae is growing despite the lights on for less hours now, green and brown, and the plants are 20% dying, 30% thinking about it and 50% growing like mad. Even well before the fish are in this is a living, and very nteresting, aquarium. I'm already enjoying watch it transfrom and change daily.

 

[waterdrop]

It doesn't particularly sound like you want advice on getting rid of snails. We should probably just leave you to watching them for a few days.