Two dead Bettas...

[NannaLou]

Hello, I have a 25ltr tank specifically for one male Betta.

I’ve tried really hard to become as knowledgable as possible before buying a fish. The tank was running (cycling) for 15 days before adding my first fish. The temperature and water parameters were perfect (the Ph in my area is a little hard, but from reading better than keep trying to change it). After 2 days of what appeared to be happy Betta behaviour, he became lethargic and died on day 4 of ownership (the water parameters were still very good Nitrate not over 5ppm). I was told to leave the tank empty for a week, double check the water parameters and try again. Betta number 2 was happy on Saturday and Sunday and he was dead on Monday morning when I came down.

I’m so sad, that, regardless of my reading, I have done something that has killed two beautiful fish.

So, my first question is any idea what I’m doing wrong. There are no obvious signs of illness or injury.
Secondly, is there any action you would recommend before getting any further fish? (I’m thinking of taking everything out of the tank and scrubbing it with hot water before putting it back - can you clean live plants?)
And finally, should I risk another Betta?

I’m a slightly soppy Pisces and watching them and knowing they were’t happy was breaking my heart...

Any advice will be very welcome, thank you

 

[Essjay]

The tank was running (cycling) for 15 days before adding my first fish.

Letting a tank run is not cycling, I'm afraid. Cycling is growing two colonies of bacteria by adding ammonia to the tank before getting fish.

the water parameters were still very good Nitrate not over 5ppm

What were the readings for ammonia and nitrite, numbers rather than 'very good'?




To go back to basics -
Fish excrete ammonia, but it is poisonous to them. In a cycled tank there is a colony of bacteria which 'eats' ammonia and turns it into nitrite. Unfortunately nitrite is also poisonous but in a cycled tank a second colony of bacteria 'eat' nitrite and turn it into nitrate. Nitrate isn't as poisonous as the other two and we remove it by doing water changes.
A brand new tank has virtually none of the the beneficial bacteria; we have to grow them.

If you did not cycle the tank by adding ammonia, you did a fish-in cycle. This involved testing for ammonia and nitrite every day and doing a water change every time there is a reading higher than zero.
This is why I asked what the ammonia and nitrite readings were. Did they get high enough to kill the fish?


The way forwards is to either do a fishless cycle before getting another betta

Cycling Your New Fresh Water Tank: Read This First!

Cycling Your First Fresh Water Tank What is Cycling and Why is it Important? Fish waste, and especially fish breathing, plus uneaten food and other organic matter breaking down in a tank all produce Ammonia. This can quickly become toxic to fish if it is allowed to build up to any measurable...

www.fishforums.net

Or get a lot of fast growing live plants and do a silent (plant) cycle before getting another fish.

Planted/silent cycling

So ya got yourself a fish tank, and now you're wondering how to cycle it. You have a few options: 1) Fishless cycle: Set up your substrate and filter (decorations and plants are optional), buy pure ammonia, add enough to your tank to read 3ppm, wait. Full instructions here...

www.fishforums.net

 

[NannaLou]

Hello Essjay,

Thank you for your reply.

I bought an API Freshwater Master Test Kit and the ammonia and nitrite readings were 0ppm. The nitrates never went over 5 ppm - my LFS checked my readings to make sure I was using the kit properly and got the same readings before I purchased a fish.

There are 6 live plants in the tank and some pretty floating ones (I need to make a note of names, the floating ones are sending ‘runners’ out like strawberries and have doubled in number)!

Adding ammonia is something I have never heard of, even the LFS just told me to let it run for 2 weeks and check the parameters before adding fish...that is what I understood to be cycling!

I’m so cross that two beautiful fish have had to die! I will read the two items that you have recommended and will very probably have a few more questions.

Thank you again, Lou

 

[Essjay]

Fish shops don't believe in cycling - it'll frighten too many customers away.

One of the most important lessons in fish keeping is never believe anything a shop worker says. Always research for yourself.


The floating plant sounds like frogbit - I have that in both my tanks.

Since you do have a lot of plants, that will be why you never saw ammonia or nitrite - you'll see why when you read the fishless cycling link. It is unlikely to be ammonia poisoning which killed your fish.

That leaves something you were sold to add to the tank, or poor quality bettas. Can I suggest you get another from a different shop!

Just in case, can you list everything you added to the tanks, including the brand of water conditioner. Unless the shop sold you something really odd, it will eliminate those as a cause.

 

[NannaLou]

I’ll start a list!

I tried, I really tried to do it properly...

 

[QiQi]

With no ammonia, beneficial bacteria won't appear. If there are no beneficial bacteria there is nothing to eat the ammonia and nitrites (these are the most toxic ones for fish).
How the cycle works:
1. You add ammonia
2. Nitrosomas bacteria start reproducing, eat the ammonia and convert it to nitrites
3. Once nitrites start being present, Nitrobactor bacteria start reproducing, eat the nitrites and convert it to nitrates.
At the start you will have high numbers of ammonia and then nitrites. Then Nitrates will go up slowly. It is safe to add fish ONLY after ammonia and nitrite levels go back to 0 after this whole procedure and of course do water changes, so the nitrate stays below 20ppm. It takes a few weeks, but you can speed it up by buying api quick start or seachem stability (bottled beneficial bacteria), or using a filter that is already established but still it needs some time. You can do it with fish in the tank (in this case the fish is the ammonia source) but you will need daily big water changes and use prime, and it might still be stressful for the fish. You will also need to test the water daily till it's cycled. If you do a fishless cycle and then add the fish you might get a mini cycle, so make sure you do big water changes again for a few days.

Another tip is to never clean your filter with tap water, squish the sponges in old tank water when you do water changes. And gravel vaccum.

 

[Essjay]

I tried, I really tried to do it properly...

You are not the only person who listened to a shop worker and had problems, and you won't be the last. You would think that shops would give proper advice but the sad truth is that so many of them are not actually trained in fish care, only in how to make a sale

 

[NannaLou]

Thank you both for your very informative replies.

I was told a very long time ago that the only stupid question is one that never gets asked... but I think this might be a stupid question...

Is the reason that the results for ammonia and nitrites were zero because there was never any ammonia to start the process, even though after a few days of having a fish they were still zero?

This is what I was sold, I’m shocked reading these instructions that they are saying you could put fish in straight away...I waited 15 days as recommended by the shop...

 

[QiQi]

I have no experience with this brand, but it looks like it is fine, the filter starter it mentions is the beneficial bacteria BUT if there is no ammonia, then the bacteria have no food so they will die off. Maybe the ammonia was 0 because the plants consumed it. I am not an expert by any means since I have only one year of experience. Did you notice your fish having dark spots on them around the gills especially? Or heavily breathing with dark red gills? Sitting at the bottom of the tank not moving?

 

[Essjay]

Is the reason that the results for ammonia and nitrites were zero because there was never any ammonia to start the process, even though after a few days of having a fish they were still zero?

The bettas would have excreted ammonia from the moment they were put in the tank. This is the source of ammonia for fish-in cycling.
The reason you never saw any ammonia is because you have live plants - and particularly the floating plants.
Quarantine tanks are only temporary. When buying new fish for a tank which already has fish, it is advisable to put the new fish in a separate tank for a few weeks in case they are carrying a disease and this is called a quarantine tank. What most people do is take some media from their main tank to provide the bacteria for the quarantine tank. I did this about 18 months ago and discovered there were no bacteria worth speaking of in the media - because I have live plants. So when I set it up again about 7 months ago I used just plants and never saw any ammonia or nitrite.

Plants need nitrogen - that's the N part of NPK in garden fertiliser. Plants actually prefer ammonia as their source of nitrogen, so in a fish tank they take up the ammonia made by the fish. And plants turn the ammonia into protein rather than nitrite. So when there are enough fast growing plants, they can take up all the ammonia made by a tankful of fish.
One betta in a 25 litre tank will not make much ammonia (certainly not as much as the 12 kuhli loaches in my 25 litre quarantine tank 7 months ago) so the plants you have are more than capable of removing all the ammonia they made.


I agree with QiQi, those products will not have harmed the bettas so we can rule out that possibility.

Can I ask - without naming names, did you get the bettas from a chain shop or a local independent fish shop?

 

[Essjay]

Another thought - what do you have on the bottom of the tank (the substrate) - sand, gravel, something else?
Any decor such as rocks, wood, plastic ornaments?

 

[NannaLou]

Hello both, I’m struggling to keep up but I am trying...

I have no experience with this brand, but it looks like it is fine, the filter starter it mentions is the beneficial bacteria BUT if there is no ammonia, then the bacteria have no food so they will die off. Maybe the ammonia was 0 because the plants consumed it. I am not an expert by any means since I have only one year of experience. Did you notice your fish having dark spots on them around the gills especially? Or heavily breathing with dark red gills? Sitting at the bottom of the tank not moving?

I think, the opening bits behind their gills did look quite black, I didn’t notice heavy breathing and I did look at some YouTube videos of Bettas ‘gasping’ and they certainly weren’t doing that. They were at the bottom of the tank and not moving very much....

There was never more than one fish at a time, so I didn’t have a quarantine tank.

I think it’s an independent shop.

I’m going to add a photo, the water is a bit murky because I’ve given it a really good clean this morning thinking that there might be something bad in the tank as the water parameters were correct !

It has a heater, an Eheim pickup 45 (2006) filter - I didn’t use the one that came with the tank as that had fully sealed cartridges that you needed to change each month and I couldn’t work out how you could do that without losing the BB that I thought I had built in by running the tank for two weeks...
three small pieces of rock and a piece of woody/rooty thing both bought at the fish shop. I’ve tried to make it look natural with hiding places that a Betta might be used to in the wild. It has black sand on the bottom, I’ve got reasonably good at vacuuming this without sucking up all the sand! I also have about 6 visible (I’m sure there will be others) tiny little snails that must have come in on the plants...they are only mms in size, roundish and dark brown with gold looking spots (I don’t know if I should be worried about these?).

My next steps?

1. what do I do with the snails?
2. Get ammonia tomorrow and start the cycling process as per the link sent this morning?
Does that sound right..?

Thank you both so much for the time you are taking, it really is very much appreciated, Lou

 

[Essjay]

The tank looks fine. Some types of gravel are dyed to get dayglo colours and those can leach contaminants but you don't have that.
The decor looks fine too - again some plastic decor is painted which can leach contaminants.

The filter is fine - that's the one I have in my shrimp tank. With just a sponge for media, it doesn't have to be replaced, just washed in old tank water during a water change.


From what you've said and the photo, you have done everything right. I am at a loss to know why the bettas died so quickly. I know that @EllRog keeps bettas so he may be able to spot something I've missed.



Snails - they are actually an important part of a tank's ecosystem if you don't let them take over. The easiest way to do that is to make sure you don't over feed the fish. The more food snails have, the more of them there are. Some people hate snails and try to kill every one they find, but I've had two types of 'pest' snails in my tanks for years and because I'm careful how much food goes in, there don't take over.



With the plants you have, you don't need to do a fishless cycle with ammonia. There are more than enough plants to remove all the ammonia made by a single betta. the fact you never had a reading for ammonia shows this.
Do you feed the plants? If so, what do you use?
Plants do need fertiliser, floating plants and leaf feeders need liquid fertiliser, root feeders need root tabs pushed into the substrate next to the plant.

 

[NannaLou]

Hello Essjay,

I haven’t fed the plants with anything yet... I’m going to need to find out exactly what they are and then what they’ll need!
If I don’t need to do a fishless cycle with ammonia, what do I need to do?
I’ll keep my fingers crossed for some specific Betta support from @EllRog.

 

[Essjay]

All you need to do is get the plants to thrive and figure out why the first two bettas died. They didn't die from being in an uncycled tank as you have enough plants for a silent cycle - in other words you have enough plants to remove all the waste made by a betta.

Looking after the plants while we figure out the problem is all you need to do.