Too Many No-no's - Sick Fish

[doublewater]

Hi

I’m a newbie, both to fish and to this board, and I’d like to thank you for all the information here which has kept me sane for the past few weeks. But I’ve committed so many big no-no’s that I now need help and I feel sooo guilty.

No-no number 1 - I’m cycling with fish. I found this board too late and I’d already put 6 guppies in my 75 litre tank! (Fair-play the guy at the lfs did say to start slowly and introduce them over a long period of time, even if it was one of the big fish chains.) I stopped there, though, and did regular water changes (sometimes as much as 3 times a day) just to keep the ammonia down to less than 0.25 ppm - not quite green but a cast to the yellow. (Is the scale in ppm or ppb, I’m using the API liquid test kit and I don’t have it with me). pH stable at 8.3 - it comes in at that level. NO2 stable at zero and NO3 varying between 5 and 40.


All was going fine for the first 6 weeks. The fish were growing and seeming quite happy. The number of water changes reduced to every2 - 3 days. Then the blue N02 started to get a purple cast! I’m starting on the second stage – or so I thought!

Then came mega no-no number 2. I lost the filter! About 10 days ago I discovered that the filter was inadvertently switched off for 2 days. Aargh! (I feel bad enough already) Since then, I’m struggling to keep the NO2 down and my fish are not looking at all well.

The filter is one of those that sit on the top of the tank and the water trickles down through it. It’s covered with a loose fitting tank lid with various holes in the back for pipe work etc. The filter contains a layer of ceramic noodles, a layer of black sponge (like the green nylon scouring cloths) a carbon filter and a layer of white scrubbing cloth type stuff. It was still dripping wet when I discovered it was off.

I’m struggling to keep the NO2 down under 0.25ppm whilst the ammonia is at zero and the NO3 is fluctuating between 5 and 40.

Is the ammonia likely to raise again as the tanks recycles?

What can I do to get the nitrite down, and help my poor fish? Am I right in assuming that if the nitrate is going up and down, something is converting something into nitrate? The levels seem to fall with the water change (as I would expect) and then rise again and fall with the next change. But I can’t get the nitrite down. Please can you help?

API 510 75 litre tank.
Don’t know the filter, sorry - it came with the tank
Air stone and bubble bar added
Temp about 25o C
Sand as substrate
No plants.

Thanks in anticipation

Hel

 

[doublewater]

Update:

Finally got the nitrate down to zero today. However, one of the fish is now starting to swim on its side, all sort of bent and wobbly. Please, any suggestions? What should I be adding or doing? I would really like to save the tank, for my daughters and the fishes sakes.

Thanks

hel

 

[Polenth]

Finally got the nitrate down to zero today. However, one of the fish is now starting to swim on its side, all sort of bent and wobbly. Please, any suggestions? What should I be adding or doing? I would really like to save the tank, for my daughters and the fishes sakes.

There are various things it could be, including internal parasites. However, bacterial infections are pretty common when water quality is poor. A swim bladder infection seems the most likely thing. You could try the interpret swim bladder treatment (it won't harm the filter bacteria).

 

[FishWishDish]

FYI there are products that will detoxify ammonia and nitrites during a with-fish cycle. You can also get an NH3 (toxic ammonia) meter if you haven't already, as the total ammonia tests are only so helpful...definitely keep the filter going, and if you can get established media from a cycled tank that can also help. Some folks on the boards donate them to newbies...

 

[Tommy Gun]

NO3 varying between 5 and 40

Finally got the nitrate down to zero today

Hmmm, I have to admit that I wonder if there might be some misunderstanding or miscommunication occurring here...

To the best of my knowledge...which I feel is relatively sufficient...your NO3 levels should not be varying all that much unless, of course, that variance is an upwards trend over time, with very few exceptions, but almost certainly not fluctuating up and down in a new aquarium. This is because, while the beneficial bacteria we commonly speak about in this hobby 'eat' or oxidize ammonia and nitrite respectively, nitrates are sort of the 'end of the road' in that they are not changed or reduced without special tactics/circumstances. It should also be said that it would be very hard for most of us to maintain a constant level of 0 ppm nitrate 100% of the time. In fact, depending on how you look at it - in this case as 'the glass half full' - the presence of nitrates is actually a very good thing because, unless you are inadvertently adding them to your tank, it gives reasonable proof that your tank is cycled, or at least in the more end stages of the nitrogen cycle. So, points being:

1. You are all but guaranteed to frustrate yourself by trying to keep nitrates at 0 ppm (mg/L) for more than a few days or even hours

2. Nitrates can be looked upon as a good sign for a cycling aquarium

3. While toxic to fish, nitrates are not nearly as toxic as ammonia and/or nitrites - which allows us to let nitrate levels to increase between water changes over a certain period of time (i.e. a week, two weeks, etc...)

Additionally, if you are using the test strips (versus the test tube version), you may want to get a second opinion to compare/contrast with your results since these test strips can easily become 'tainted' if not stored properly - which can be difficult to do for some of us.

To help aid your fish with the higher nitrites, you may find that the addition of salt (sodium chloride, like table salt , as one example) can go far since it helps reduce the effect of nitrites in blood. You may also want to ensure that a higher amount of gas exchange (Co2 out of the water, dissolved O2 in) is occurring during periods of higher nitrite levels...and keep your water temp slightly on the lower side since, at higher temps, water cannot hold as much oxygen

While I agree it could be some sort of illness/disease that your fish is suffering from, to be honest, my gut feeling is that your fish is suffering from either ammonia or nitrite poisoning...and has progressed rather significantly. The bad news is that often times, even if a fish does not die from sufficiently toxic ammonia or nitrite, irreversible damage may occur (which is one, of many, reasons why many hobbyists are strong advocates of fishless cycling...including myself). Unless you feel as though your fish has absolutely no hope, or is unduly suffering right now, I might suggest that you continue to perform water changes as your water tests indicate, try the addition of a small amount of salt (sodium chloride/NaCl), and do your best to keep the water chemistry as close to ideal as possible...including oxygen levels.

Sorry to hear about your troubles though...I hope you can find the best help possible to save your current and/or future fish.

 

[FishWishDish]

Update:

Finally got the nitrate down to zero today. However, one of the fish is now starting to swim on its side, all sort of bent and wobbly. Please, any suggestions? What should I be adding or doing? I would really like to save the tank, for my daughters and the fishes sakes.

Thanks

hel

You could also try thawing and shelling (take off the outer skin) a frozen pea to feed...sometimes intestinal blockages cause swimming problems. I'm not sure how prevalent this is with guppies (don't have any) but we have a goldfish who needs a pea every other day (at least) and for all commercial food to be soaked before dropping it into the tank. Cut it into as small pieces as you can manage.

Here's one reference for guppies and peas--you might want to dig up some more before deciding on a course of action. Searching guppies and swim bladder yields a lot of results.

http/en.allexperts.com/q/Freshwater-Aqua...m-bladder-1.htm

 

[Musho3210]

tommy boy, you are correct but not in the 0 nitrates part, 0 nitrates is a big problem for planted tank keepers since plants need a source of nitrogen. If anything, it is very rare to find any nitrates in a well maintained planted tank. I dose nitrates in my planted tank...

 

[doublewater]

HI

Thank you all for replying - I have taken all your advice.... but first

QUOTE
Finally got the nitrate down to zero today


Hmmm, I have to admit that I wonder if there might be some misunderstanding or miscommunication occurring here...

Yep... Stress induced wrong worms disease. I meant nitrite NO2. It's OK - chemical formulae I'm Ok with, words not so. I really did mean nitrite.

sorry

back to topic

The NO2 level barely rose this morning and has stayed the same all day today. That's even after I fed them last night. They absolutely loved the peas, it was like something out of a low budget horror flick - The Guppies and the Peas, think it'll be a hit?

I've added some salt and the fish seem happier and brighter. Whether that's the salt or the lower NO2 level I don't know. Or even the peas. Do I need to add salt continuosly from now on, or only until the tank has stabilised?

I've upped the flow on the air stone to try and increase the oxygen levels. (Altering so many things at once really goes against the grain - change one thing, observe, change another if necessary is the rule normally, but it's necessary in this case.) Unfortunately, I can't do much aboout the temperature. The water temperature reflects the room temperature. I do have a heater for when the weather gets colder, but it's just stiing in the tank as decoration at the moment. The temperature isn't dropping at night yet either. Tank temp is still about 24 at 3 am (usually). Is there a way to cool a tank - has someone devised a refrigeration unit? Hint: someone invent one, please Cheap?

Now onto fishy...

He's still going. Not quite so bent as yesterday, very nearly straight. He just looks as if his tail is too heavy for his body. Separated him for a while yesterday, and gave him a pea, and today he is much straighter. He's eating and exploring again, albeit very slowly.

Whoever said keeping fish was relaxing - obviously cycled without fish. If this all goes pear shaped, that's what I'll be doing. This sure is a vertical learning curve

Thanks again for your help, I'll keep you informed.

hel