Can someone please explain the Waste to Ammonia to NO2 to NO3 cycle to me im a bit confused.....

[Goose3080]

It takes longer than a day to get the nitrite eaters going. I would just use plain dechlorinated water to do a water change, and use the new water as soon as it's mixed.


Both ammonia and nitrite still show up in the tests in the detoxified forms. If you had a reading of 0.5 nitrite, that's how much nitrite is in the tank detoxified or not. All the API stuff does is stop it killing the fish for a few hours.

the next bottle of water is mixed now.....but......dont I have to heat it up first ? I have a 2nd heater in it at the moment warming it up from cold, that generally takes a day in itself to heat it up.

 

[Essjay]

You can heat the new water by using hot water. As you are in the UK, it depends on what kind of boiler you have. If it's a combi boiler, you can use hot tap water mixed in with cold to get the temperature right. But if you have a heat only boiler with a hot water cylinder you can't use the hot tap so boil a kettle. (It's the header tank in the attic that's the problem with the hot water cylinder type as anything can get into that header tank. That's also the reason you aren't supposed to use water from the hot tap to drink or cook with)

I have a heat only boiler. I use a 10 litre bucket and as my dechlorinator dose is 1 drop per 3.8 litres, I put 2 drops in the bucket, boil 1 litre in the kettle then run cold tap water and boiling water in the bucket to the 7.6 litre mark. Since it takes 11 buckets to refill during a water change, I couldn't do it without using boiling water to warm cold tap water.

 

[Goose3080]

You can heat the new water by using hot water. As you are in the UK, it depends on what kind of boiler you have. If it's a combi boiler, you can use hot tap water mixed in with cold to get the temperature right. But if you have a heat only boiler with a hot water cylinder you can't use the hot tap so boil a kettle. (It's the header tank in the attic that's the problem with the hot water cylinder type as anything can get into that header tank. That's also the reason you aren't supposed to use water from the hot tap to drink or cook with)

I have a heat only boiler. I use a 10 litre bucket and as my dechlorinator dose is 1 drop per 3.8 litres, I put 2 drops in the bucket, boil 1 litre in the kettle then run cold tap water and boiling water in the bucket to the 7.6 litre mark. Since it takes 11 buckets to refill during a water change, I couldn't do it without using boiling water to warm cold tap water.

yup, heat only boiler for me too unfortunately, didnt even cross my mind about using the kettle though.

ive just checked the temp of the new bottle I made earlier and its upto 27oC already, so going to throw that in there now, that will be a 50% total water change today, i'll do a double water change again tomorrow too.

 

[Goose3080]

2nd water change tonight and discovered one of my frogs dead, this is really confusing me, its almost like they dont like nice water, they lived through massive spikes of NO2 and NO3 where I was struggling to get NO2 below 8ppm and NO3 was up in the 50's, I get water perfect, everything is running fine until the filter breaks down, I get a small NO2 uplift or spike whatever you want to call it, it wasnt even really in the danger zone, OK it wasnt zero, but it wasnt 8ppm either its was probably 4ppm, my Pleco dies and now ive got next to no NO2 (reading 0.25ppm after 2nd water change) and next to no NO3 and a frog dies.

 

[lnsaneM]

I was looking at nitrifying bacteria online as well. I saw some nitrifying bacteria powder on aliexpress, and compared to the prices, these are really cheap. I wonder how they work compared to all the other ones

 

[Essjay]

If it's powder it won't work. The bacteria we want need to be in liquid and alive when we use them, not dried out. And any product which says it contains spores is not worth buying either as the bacteria we want don't make spores.

 

[lnsaneM]

If it's powder it won't work. The bacteria we want need to be in liquid and alive when we use them, not dried out. And any product which says it contains spores is not worth buying either as the bacteria we want don't make spores.

I see, so I guess when it's time to buy new bacteria I'll just get some Dr. Tims

 

[Goose3080]

I see, so I guess when it's time to buy new bacteria I'll just get some Dr. Tims

That's what I've just ordered, make sure you get the right one though because they do different ones for cold water, freshwater and marine tanks, mine should be here tomorrow, I just brought 60ml, got to tip the whole bottle in my tank which treats 120 litres of water, it's quite expensive, cost me £16 for 60ml.

 

[Essjay]

discovered one of my frogs dead

Frogs are sensitive to poor water conditions and to just about anything we add to a tank, except perhaps dechlorinator. One reason why it's best to keep them in a tank on their own.
Another common reason for frogs dying is starvation. They are almost blind and find their food by smell. When there are fish in the tank, by the time the frogs have located the food, the fish have eaten it all. I once had frogs in with a betta and it was a nightmare trying to find somewhere to put the frogs' food where the betta couldn't get at it

 

[Goose3080]

Frogs are sensitive to poor water conditions and to just about anything we add to a tank, except perhaps dechlorinator. One reason why it's best to keep them in a tank on their own.
Another common reason for frogs dying is starvation. They are almost blind and find their food by smell. When there are fish in the tank, by the time the frogs have located the food, the fish have eaten it all. I once had frogs in with a betta and it was a nightmare trying to find somewhere to put the frogs' food where the betta couldn't get at it

I know what you mean, I feed them with live blood worm twice a week, and yes the other fish do eat it, but very slowly, I spot feed the frogs so I make sure they get plenty the frog do also eat the fish food if they can get to it in time.

 

[Essjay]

Have you tried a specific frog food as well? I used this when I had frogs, it was recommended by a frog keeper on here.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B002DZI1K6/?tag=

 

[Goose3080]

Have you tried a specific frog food as well? I used this when I had frogs, it was recommended by a frog keeper on here.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B002DZI1K6/?tag=

Not seen that before, but I'll definitely give it a go, thanks for that.

 

[Essjay]

Since it's pellets, I used to soak them in a bit of tank water first. Just adding them to the tank meant they had to sink past the betta, and they never reached the bottom. If they are soaked, they stay where you put them like the bloodworm

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

2nd water change tonight and discovered one of my frogs dead, this is really confusing me, its almost like they dont like nice water, they lived through massive spikes of NO2 and NO3 where I was struggling to get NO2 below 8ppm and NO3 was up in the 50's, I get water perfect, everything is running fine until the filter breaks down, I get a small NO2 uplift or spike whatever you want to call it, it wasnt even really in the danger zone, OK it wasnt zero, but it wasnt 8ppm either its was probably 4ppm, my Pleco dies and now ive got next to no NO2 (reading 0.25ppm after 2nd water change) and next to no NO3 and a frog dies.

Hi!
I'm really sorry about your frog. You're in good hands with Essjay helping you, she knows her stuff.


Just wanted to explain why this sometimes happens, because you're not the first person to be like "what the heck? They seemed fine when the levels were high, I'm improving it now, and that kills them??" and it can cause doubt and confusion. But there's a good reason why it happens. What you have to know is that ammonia and nitrite are so toxic, they literally burn the skin and gills. Like breathing in smoke, which we can handle in low levels for a short time too, but enough smoke in the room you're trapped in and it proves fatal.
The ammonia and nitrite irritate and inflames the tissues in the gills and on the skin, irritating the animal and making it hard to breathe. Levels get high enough and the animal passes away from the damage caused.

Even low levels cause damage, kill more sensitive creatures, and especially if ongoing over time can cause enough damage and stress to kill the fish/frog/invert. Once the water is safe again, the animals aren't instantly recovered, they still have damage from the ammonia and nitrite, and it takes time for them to recover even once in clean water, and not all will survive, sadly.


I often use fire and smoke as an analogy for this. If someone survives a housefire with smoke inhalation and some burns, if they later pass away in the hospital, it wasn't being moved to the hospital and the doctors treating them that killed them! They just couldn't recover from the damage they'd taken as a result of the fire and smoke. Same goes here for the creatures in our tanks.

So, keep listening to Essjay and the others, they're right on the money, and you do seem to get the cycle. It's going to take patience and a lot of water changes to get it fully cycled, but the daily water changes aren't forever! It can be rough getting a tank cycled, especially when accidentally overstocked, but it will stabilise eventually.

 

[Goose3080]

Hi!
I'm really sorry about your frog. You're in good hands with Essjay helping you, she knows her stuff.


Just wanted to explain why this sometimes happens, because you're not the first person to be like "what the heck? They seemed fine when the levels were high, I'm improving it now, and that kills them??" and it can cause doubt and confusion. But there's a good reason why it happens. What you have to know is that ammonia and nitrite are so toxic, they literally burn the skin and gills. Like breathing in smoke, which we can handle in low levels for a short time too, but enough smoke in the room you're trapped in and it proves fatal.
The ammonia and nitrite irritate and inflames the tissues in the gills and on the skin, irritating the animal and making it hard to breathe. Levels get high enough and the animal passes away from the damage caused.

Even low levels cause damage, kill more sensitive creatures, and especially if ongoing over time can cause enough damage and stress to kill the fish/frog/invert. Once the water is safe again, the animals aren't instantly recovered, they still have damage from the ammonia and nitrite, and it takes time for them to recover even once in clean water, and not all will survive, sadly.


I often use fire and smoke as an analogy for this. If someone survives a housefire with smoke inhalation and some burns, if they later pass away in the hospital, it wasn't being moved to the hospital and the doctors treating them that killed them! They just couldn't recover from the damage they'd taken as a result of the fire and smoke. Same goes here for the creatures in our tanks.

So, keep listening to Essjay and the others, they're right on the money, and you do seem to get the cycle. It's going to take patience and a lot of water changes to get it fully cycled, but the daily water changes aren't forever! It can be rough getting a tank cycled, especially when accidentally overstocked, but it will stabilise eventually.

it is very disheartening....... I did a water change last night and NO2 was at 0.25ppm, I meant to do 2 but fell asleep on the sofa, this morning ive tested the water again and its at 1ppm, I seem to be fighting with this, so ive done another water change before leaving for work and tested and got it down to 0.50ppm, no more dead fish yet, i'll do another change or 2 tonight.

I think at 1ppm of NO2 may just be that API stuff wearing off.

I also put the water wisteria in last night although im not 100% sure they actually sent me the right stuff, doesnt look like wisteria, I also put some water lettuce in.