Things I'd Like To Change About Fishkeeping...

I would ban the sale of anything over about 6 inches (including clown loaches) without a licence or something similar. It is cruel to keep fish this large in a tank i believe, anyway (unless the tank is huge) when you compare it to their natural habitat. As for red tailed catfish, pacus and oscars etc... even when in a 1000gallon tank they still look trapped in, really.

Thing is though with fish being bought and sold as just another capitalist commodity, the exploitation of fish wont stop easily, i mean dying is still legal :hyper:
 
Can I stick up on behalf of small tanks and point out not everyone can afford these massive 75g behemoths that some people are lucky enough to have? Christ, I would love one of those, don't get me wrong, I'd sell a kidney for it, but until I can afford it, I just have to be careful with stocking my smaller tanks. (Fear not, the guppy fry listed in my sig will be finding a new home elsewhere in the interests of saving space). So no, I don't think they should ban small tanks as it would exclude a lot of people from the hobby, but I definitely agree with the idea of making it very clear what you can and can't have in said tanks. *nod*

I don't think the argument is about tanks of 75G. I have a 29G which I bought off ebay second hand from someone a small drive away (I don't drive and my wife wasn't overly happy about having to fetch it, although it was her who wanted a fish tank in the first place)

It was already stocked, although incorrectly, and was complete, so when I got home I just had to fill with dechlorinised water + half a tank of old water I got in a container from the seller, then acclimatise the fish and away we went.

This was for £75, which is about the full setup cost of the small tanks anyway, when you add all the bits you have to have together.

It was my choice to spend hundreds more going planted and improving the lighting, and my choice to rehome the fish that were too big for the tank and restock with suitably sized fish.

29G isn't huge and I'm not saying this should be the minimum, but a 60Ltr (15USG) is about the smallest I think is really viable. (2ft x 1ft x 1ft)

I think the problem is that before people get into the hobby they think its cheap an easy, just buy a tank, fill it with water and put in the fish, when in reality the fish can be cheap if you just want the basics, the tank can be cheap if you want a small one, then you've got to get substrate, decor, dechlor, filters, heaters, food, test kits and of course quite often in the beginning loads of meds for the ensuing problems that arise from no guidelines being given to the novice, by the shop, as they just want to sell.

All in all it is cheaper than owning a dog, but can be very expensive, if you have problems, or develop an interest in exotic species or planting.
 
Can I stick up on behalf of small tanks and point out not everyone can afford these massive 75g behemoths that some people are lucky enough to have? Christ, I would love one of those, don't get me wrong, I'd sell a kidney for it, but until I can afford it, I just have to be careful with stocking my smaller tanks. (Fear not, the guppy fry listed in my sig will be finding a new home elsewhere in the interests of saving space). So no, I don't think they should ban small tanks as it would exclude a lot of people from the hobby, but I definitely agree with the idea of making it very clear what you can and can't have in said tanks. *nod*

Yeah I dont think the argument is that everyone should have a 75g or bigger. I personally just dont think that 3, 5, or even 10g tanks are suitable for beginners - especially those with only the "back up" of their LFS, which in most cases isn't worth much! And most commonly sold fish need bigger tanks than that. While you could fit a platy in a 5g, it wouldn't be the best environment for it. Neons need stable water in an established tank. I saw someone today saying they think 7.5g is suitable for a pair of angels, on another board. How can it be? With the exception of some fish (I'm presuming bettas mainly - but I dont keep them and still think they'd prefer bigger than 3g!) the more space they have the better. Water conditions in a tiny tank are much harder to maintain, and yet the majority of those who buy them are kids or office folks and the like - who probably dont (all) have the time or experience to do that. Some folks dont even know they have to do water changes - and in that 5g tank, that's going to mean big problems.

You can get a 20-30g set up for roughly the same price as these little set ups nowadays - maybe a few quid more, and yet that would give the fish more room and more stable water conditions. That was my point.

And to the person who mentionned quarantine tanks - you're absolutely right - just shows why these theories about bans dont work.

I still think the way forward is proper labelling of fish with truthful information - after all 90% of folks would be less likely to buy that common plec/pacu/red tailed catfish if they knew how big they got. How many posts do we see on the plec forums saying "I bought this how big will it get?" or "My LFS said common plecs are suitable for 10g tanks" or "My LFS said it'd only get to 6" max"? Saying that - some of the responsibility has to be put on the buyer too - if more people researched their fish before they bought them, there wouldn't be half the problem there is today.

But if people going into their LFS knew that pangasius reached 4ft+, would they still be keen to buy them for their 20g community? Maybe some - but certainly the majority wouldn't - which in turn would lead to lack of demand, and then the LFS wouldn't be so keen to stock them. While there's a demand, they'll always be on sale.

Another thing that irks me a little is the "Well I cant afford any better" argument. While I appreciate not all of us (including me) are made of money - prices between tiny and medium tanks are much of a muchness, second hand tanks are always available, and you also have to think - if I cant afford this - what happens if my filter breaks/fish get ill/tank cracks? We always tell people to be prepared for outlay for vets fees and expenses with other pets, why shouldn't the same apply to fish?

Eeeeh heck, in an ideal world... :rolleyes:
 
i don't think there should be a minimum tank size sold, if done correctly it's perfectly feasible to keep some sort of fish/invert in virtually any size tank. I do think however that there should be a hell of a lot less of them on sale and the prices should actually be higher so only people who really knew what they're getting into with a little tank would do it.

I have a 10g community, none of the fish in it will get above 3/4 of a inch and the bioload is miniscule, i've 10 fish in there now, will possibly go up to 14/15.... but it's fairly new I want to give the fish in there at present a chance to settle and fill out then i'll see if I have room for more. With careful maintenance and fish selection it's perfectly possible for small tanks to work fine.


I do think things like pangasius cats shouldn't be held in lfs's, you should only be able to get them if your lfs order's them in for you, and hopefully each lfs would check you have the space to house it properly if you ask for one.

I do think there should be more care info available to customers, in our local marine shop (co-incidentally one of pfk's top 5 in the country) they have a little tray system with printed info on key issues like filtration, algae, skimming etc. If I ran an lfs I'd give customers info sheets on the nitrogen cycle and fishless cycling, maintenance, stocking levels, fish suitable for 10g tanks and plants
 
You wouldn't need to ban anything as long as people were correctly informed, and fish were too expensive to be able to be replaced easily. Which is ideally what I'd like.

Then you could say "oh but how could I ever afford such and such" well, on the same note, how would you ever afford medications when they're ill? The housing arrangements? the food?

Fish are like any other creature, if you don't have the money, time or room for them, look for a different pet.
 
I like Fella's idea about difficult/large fish being made more expensive, so they can only be bought by really committed fishkeepers. I think it would be perfectly reasonable that some fish would be out of the range of most people- well, so what. If I can't afford the large house/large tank/feeding and heating bills- then I shouldn't be keeping these fish. Even as it is, there are lots of fish- and lots of others of life's little luxuries- that I know I will never be able to afford; I view this with equanimity. Only problem is, this pricing policy would be more difficult to enforce than even a ban. Unless they were taxed, of course...
I also like the idea of certain fish (difficult/large) only being sold on licence, so that lfs would have to apply to sell them and not get their licence until they had demonstrated a suitable level of expertise/customer information etc. This would be a way for specialist fish shops to differentiate themselves from non-specialist pet shops. Shops that didn't care to get the expertise would not be allowed to sell a number of species.
But most of all I would like to see more promotion of small and otherwise suitable species. I would like fewer people on fish forums to speak as if a fish could only have a personality if they are over a foot long, or as if there is a natural distinction big/oddball/specialist fish on the one side and small/boring/beginner's fish on the other. It's snobbery, and it totally ignores the fact that lfs, like all other businesses, are governed by demand: if we start asking for interesting small fish, we may (eventually) receive. But this involves people with experience of interesting small fish actively promoting them. Personally, I see nothing dull about halfbeaks, gobies, killifish, shelldwellers or puffers. These are fish that pack a lot of personality into their few inches. I really enjoyed Neale Monks' article in PFK (December issue) about different livebearers; there's so much more to discover out there.
 
c. Reduce the amount of wild caught fish sold in petshops, and increase the amount of funding and research into breeding fish which so far have been unsuccessfully or barely succcessfully bred in captivity.

Is that truly necessary?

Take the Cardinal tetra. I have no problems with it being wild sourced. Millions, and possibly billions of these fish die every year when the floodwaters recede. Collecting a few thousand of them when the waters are high is going to have no detrimental affect on them in the wild.

Also, a number of fish (probably most) exhibit little to no parental care over spawns of fry. Taking the juveniles can give a better chance at life. The taking of mature adults should be closely monitored, however.

The case of the cardinal tetra is deceptive, as all those cardinals who die will become food for other fish and animals. Their dead bodies will also fertilise the soil and lake beds, helping replenish the habitats they live in when the waters return. The same goes for all the juvenile fish- they are food for other animals. If you go around saving all the misfortunate fish in the world, you are inevitably taking away the food that other animals need to eat.

I'll give you an example- last year i watched a nature documentory series called "Survival"(sp?) and in one of the episode they featured an area where kribs naturally lived in the wild. The lakes and rivers which the kribs occupied were a harsh place, and every year when the dry season came, thousands of kribs died as the lakes began to dry up. So the kribs bred like crazy and laid their eggs in the soft mud and gravel beds of the lakes as the dry season progressed.
Most of the adult kribs died as the lakes dried up, but their eggs stayed moist having being laid in under the gravel and mud of the lake and river beds. As the rains returned and the lakes and rivers flooded once more, all the krib fry hatched and ate the dried and long dead bodies of the adult kribs. With all the dead adult kribs that had died during the dry season, their bodies also contributed to the massive algae blooms which followed in the wet season, which also further fed the fry.

So although a lot of kribs died and many were destined to die anyway, their dead bodies fertilised the waters and fed the offspring for a long time. Not just that, but all the misfortunate adult cribs also fed many predatory catfishes living in the surrounding waters and helped many predatory catfish get through the worst of the dry season.

Plundering the wild fish stocks has no real bennefet for the majority of fish ecosystems, and fishkeeping has been more harmful to the survival of a lot of fish in the wild than what you seem to realise. There are quite a few fish than have been banned for export/sale due to the impact that aquarium hobby has had on them like the blue eyed pleco. Although commercial fishing for food obviously takes a far worse toll on wild fish stocks, the aquarium hobby is not completely blameless/innocent either and think we should still be doing more about it, particularly in the case of marine fish.

I keep my 3 male bettas in 1 gallon, and many betta enthusiasts agree that 1g is the minimum tank size for a betta. This is not cruel treatment on my part, it is an proper hom for a betta. By getting rid of less than 2 gallons for bettas and tanks that are small and advertised for goldfish, you make it impossible to find a tank that is small and has the air pump, light etc already in the kit, and then people won't want to buy a fish because they can't get a setup for 20$, they have to pay more to get lights, plants, rocks, filters, all of this...

I am not wishing to "get rid" of tansk under 2gallons as you put it, simply reduce/limit the amount of such tanks sold, and instead increase the amount of larger tanks sold. The only fish i can think of that can go in a tank under 4gallons is a betta. Plus, if you increase the amount of larger tanks being produced, it will inevitable lower the prices/costs for such tanks if they are produced on a larger scale.

There is no way you could change some of those things,although i agree about it.It would cost millions,the fish industry(or whatever it is lol)would go down hill,no1 would want to buy fish anymore because of the image that it's hard and you need a big tank.Plus quite a few people who start fish keeping go into bigger fishes.It wouldn't be fun without them!I totally agree with goldfish for sale at fairs,most people who 'win' them probly don't have fish tanks !


I don't think such changes would create the image that the fishkeeping hobby is hard and thus stop people from joining it. No, i think it would just make people think more about getting into fishkeeping and also respect fish more as living creatures. Too many people at the moment believe that fishkeeping is too easy and undemanding, with the result that many people buy a 5gal tank for their comet goldfish and a tub of flakes and then find out they need a 75gal for such a huge growing goldfish and think "OMG i never knew fishkeeping costed so much" or "I never knew it was more difficult/complicated than what i first believed" etc.
Right now there are even people that don't even want to know about cycling tanks, because they have been fed the image that all you need to keep a fish is some water in a tank and some fish flakes, and would rather keep it at that.
People don't need to keep fish- IMHO, either way its not a bad thing if less people join the hobby because they view it as challenging- its better than more people joining the hobby because they think it is cheap and easy (which for many fishkeepers, not always turns out to be the case at times a lot of the time).

I like Fella's idea about difficult/large fish being made more expensive, so they can only be bought by really committed fishkeepers. I think it would be perfectly reasonable that some fish would be out of the range of most people- well, so what. If I can't afford the large house/large tank/feeding and heating bills- then I shouldn't be keeping these fish. Even as it is, there are lots of fish- and lots of others of life's little luxuries- that I know I will never be able to afford; I view this with equanimity. Only problem is, this pricing policy would be more difficult to enforce than even a ban. Unless they were taxed, of course...
I also like the idea of certain fish (difficult/large) only being sold on licence, so that lfs would have to apply to sell them and not get their licence until they had demonstrated a suitable level of expertise/customer information etc. This would be a way for specialist fish shops to differentiate themselves from non-specialist pet shops. Shops that didn't care to get the expertise would not be allowed to sell a number of species.

Pushing up the price up fish will not improve the quality of buyers to any decent degree- it would also cut out a lot of potentially very good fish keepers from joining the hobby too. Money does not equal a good fishkeeper. Although you certainly need to have a lot of money to buy and keep certain types of fish very well, a wealthy owner doesn't nesarsarily make a better owner.
However i definately agree you should have to have a license to own certain fish (and the license of course should be hard to come by), but at current it is often all too easy to get licenses to sell or own certain animals. It may of course help sort out the serious sellers and owners from the ones who aren't that serious about fishkeeping and teh selling of fish though as you said.

Having said this, there are of course other good reasons to encourage more local (as in: near the final destination) captive breeding: it means fewer individual fish will be subjected to the stress of capture and long transports (but clearly not if they are to be transported from Singapore to the UK), also that the fish will be better acclimatised to local water conditions. I knew there was a reason I need another fry tank..... ;)

I definately agree there should be more localised breeding going on with fish, so many of the fish you see in petshops end up sick or dead due to the stress of the long transportation processes so many have to endure. It would be interesting to see (statistically) how much the mortality/death rates rise amoungst certain types of commonly sold fish the longer they are kept in transport.

EDIT: well there's one PFK article i found on fihs transportation;

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/pfk/...?article_id=152

And this one (which i havn't read all the through yet);

http://www.neaq.org/scilearn/research/pdf/16__.pdf

Apparently 20million cardinal tetras have been exported from Rio Negro, Amazonias, Brazil in the last 2 decades, with some researchers estimating a 50% mortality rate during transport while others only a couple of percent.
 
Tokis-Phoenix, you bring some very admirable points to the table, all of which I can agree upon for the most part. Especially agreeing with stopping the practice of displaying bettas in a cup of water. I find that incredibly inhumane.

The biggest hurdle here is compliance by the lfs, and because of the almighty dollar (and bank loans, employee salaries, shop space rent, etc.) you won't see compliance anytime soon, if ever.

But the problem isn't only fish keeping, it's all pets in general. How many kittens, puppies, birds, etc. given as gifts or purchased on impulse are taken to the pound and subsequently destroyed because the novelty wore off after a month? Answer? Tens of thousands yearly in the U.S. alone. The numbers are both staggering and sickening.

Unfortunately, as long as money can be made off the greed and ignorance of human beings things will be slow if not impossible to change. Education, above all else, is best. But getting 100 percent of the bad lfs owners to do this will be impossible. And there's a new moron with a $20 bill born every minute.

I have only found one lfs in my area who gets an A grade for educating people and that shop is the only one I'll support with my hard-earned cash. The others I've been to fail miserably.

Good post by you, thanks!
 
Basicly, everything you want to ban/limit or change can be overcome with consumer knowledge. If there's not a market for something it won't be around long.

f. Reduce the amount of fish sold which must be kept on their own

I don't get this, tho. Firstly, I take it that you don't like single kept fish so you'd be more than happy to get rid of them or at least most of them and not worry about the loss. Secondly, I like fish that have to be kept alone. I don't enjoy a tank of a bunch of tiny fish that spaz out all over the place with no mission in their daily lives.

While done with good intentions, I'm kind of surprised that so many here are agreeing with such radical changes.
 
Money does not = sense.
IME the two are entirely independent of oneanother
It is perfectly possible to have one, both or neither.
 
Basicly, everything you want to ban/limit or change can be overcome with consumer knowledge. If there's not a market for something it won't be around long.

f. Reduce the amount of fish sold which must be kept on their own

I don't get this, tho. Firstly, I take it that you don't like single kept fish so you'd be more than happy to get rid of them or at least most of them and not worry about the loss. Secondly, I like fish that have to be kept alone. I don't enjoy a tank of a bunch of tiny fish that spaz out all over the place with no mission in their daily lives.

While done with good intentions, I'm kind of surprised that so many here are agreeing with such radical changes.

I don't want to ban everything, just reduce certain things or types of fish- the only fish i'd ban are absolutely monster size growing fish like the red tail catfish. Don't get me wrong- I do like such fish and i am not against the large numbers of them sold based on any grudge i have against them or anything like that. The reason why i want to reduce fish which must be kept on their own though is because there are far more of these fish sold than what there are actually good homes for. Loads of these non-community fish somehow end up in community tanks every year because of this.
Because they cannot be kept in community tanks, they are also less desirable for a large majority of fish owners (this is a fact, whether you like it or not, most fish keepers keep community tanks and thus there is more of a demand for community fish).
One of the main problems in fishkeeping is that there are far too many types of fish sold than what there is actually a good demand for. They are simply sold because they are cheap or will get bought on the grounds they look unusual. I'll give you an example- in my lfs, they always have a tank stocked to the brim with CAE's (chinese algae eater), often numbering over 30. But i live in a very small town and i find it hard to believe that there are at least 30 fishkeepers in my town willing to have a good tank with a CAE in it. Considering the millions of these fish that get sold every year in the country, there aren't millions of fishkeepers capable or willing to look after such fish properly. Ok, a CAE is still technically a community fish, but it can be a very unsociable and dangerous one and thus when keeping a CAE, your stocking as to what other fish you can put with it is severely limited.

I completely agree that improving the knowledge of the general public is good, but it doesn't change the fact that there are too many particular types of fish sold than what there are actually good homes for. I often wonder where all the dozens of common and sailfin pleco's, whale catfish and pirhana's etc end up sold every week from one of my main lfs's...
 
the only fish i'd ban are absolutely monster size growing fish like the red tail catfish.
Ok, I see where you're coming from then. You mean huge fish that need 1,000g aquariums not fish that need to be kept alone. IMO, there's a big difference between the two. By the sounds of your original post it sounded like you meant cichlids and piranhas for example, like a S. elongatus or festae etc.

Because they cannot be kept in community tanks, they are also less desirable for a large majority of fish owners (this is a fact, whether you like it or not, most fish keepers keep community tanks and thus there is more of a demand for community fish).

Shouldn't matter. Where do you draw the line then? You want to take away a certain genera of fish because they aren't as popular, that would be like taking away Zebra Danios, guppies or whatever else that isn't listed in the Top5 of fish popularity. There are still a lot of people that would want them. The majority of people that own bigger fish won't just have the small tropical tanks. If they've done their homework they will have the correct tank size for them.

The reason why i want to reduce fish which must be kept on their own though is because there are far more of these fish sold than what there are actually good homes for.

The same thing can be said for betta's rtbs or practically any non-tetra anything kept with tetra's etc. It's not the fish that are the problem. You'd have to take all of them away also. Even though there are a lot of people that keep them properly, it doesn't matter then. Many first time community fish owners don't even know about cycling or water paramaters and water changes etc. That's not a good home for fish. By the time people have graduated to cichlids that are the larger and more aggressive, they usually know how to better care for fish, not in all cases but most I would think.

I actually agree with a lot of what you say although it may not look like it. I just don't agree with the lone fish limit based upon why you think because the same thing can be said about community fish not being kept in the right aquaria and with the correct tankmates. I also have a biased view on this because if I could only keep community fish I'd give the hobby up, so of course I'm going to debate that piranhas and cichlids shouldn't be limited. That's all I keep.

Maybe penalizing lfs' that give out incorrect information or none at all would be a better way to improve aquarists knowledge.
 
Btw Tokis-Phoenix,

It's really nice being able to have a friendly debate with somewhat opposing views without flaming and anger that usually happens in most forums. I appreciate it and also appreciate and respect your opinions in this thread.
 
At the end of the day it is down to the individual to ensure they know what they are buying, you dont go into a car showroom and buy a sports car and then complain when you wrap it around a lamp post because the salesman didnt warn you that it had fast acceleration do you?

There is enough information in books and on the internet for anyone to quickly find out what they need to know about most fish commonly seen in local fish stores which leaves only laziness and ignorance as an excuse. If they were to start banning large and predatory fish just because some people that buy them cant be bothered to check what they are buying first i would soon be drying out my tanks and giving the hobby up.
 

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