Other fish get bigger, yes, and someone with knowledge and a reasonably sized tank and house one, true, but common plecs are often sold to little kids or inexperienced beginners who just want a "sucky fish" for their 10 gallon tank, and who have no idea how big that little "sucky fish" is gonna get. Sure, its a lot harder to deal with, say, a pangasius catfish, but they aren't as commonly abused. And if you're a serious fishkeeper with an enormous tank, then it shouldn't be too much of a problem to march down to the local LFS and put in a special order for one. Come to think of it, I think all fish that get to 2ft or bigger should be banned except for special order. The good of all the fish in the pet trade should be worth a little inconvenience on our part.
Things I'd Like To Change About Fishkeeping...
- Thread starter Tokis-Phoenix
- Start date
LisaLQ
Fish Gatherer
Commons dont get to 2ft though - well - only in large breeding ponds, the average is 12-18", and like I said, most folks can fit in a 4ft x 18" x 18" somewhere. I dont get why you think you need an "enormous" tank, 4ft x 18" x 18" is hardly enormous. I do agree that bigger fish should be on special order, but a 12" common hardly comes under the 2ft rule 
I dont think they should be sold to kids with 10gs, like I said - mandatory labelling of fish with truthful information would help that though - as if they knew they got that big, they wouldn't get them. No point banning a popular peaceful community fish - yes they get big - but they're not huge monsters or predators, and if people were given the right info when they bought them, it wouldn't be much of a hardship for them to house one properly in amongst other fish. Whereas an 8ft+ tank for the bigger kinds of fish is out of most folks league (especially in the case of predatory fish where they'd be the only thing in it!), a common plec only needs half that. Obviously the bigger the better but they'd be quite happy in a 4ft x 18" x 18" in most cases.
I dont think they should be sold to kids with 10gs, like I said - mandatory labelling of fish with truthful information would help that though - as if they knew they got that big, they wouldn't get them. No point banning a popular peaceful community fish - yes they get big - but they're not huge monsters or predators, and if people were given the right info when they bought them, it wouldn't be much of a hardship for them to house one properly in amongst other fish. Whereas an 8ft+ tank for the bigger kinds of fish is out of most folks league (especially in the case of predatory fish where they'd be the only thing in it!), a common plec only needs half that. Obviously the bigger the better but they'd be quite happy in a 4ft x 18" x 18" in most cases.
I'm not one for rushing into laws, bans, and rules.
Laws that affect the uninformed & uneducated only solve the symptoms, not the problem. If you want to help solve the problem print out some small cards that have this on them;
http
/www.fishforever.co.uk/
Go to your local lfs, you are probably on a first name basis with them if you have been hanging out at TFF. Explain that this is an educational non-profit site, dedicated to keeping fish healthy and happy. Ask them to hand out a card to customers.
Explain that if their customers have a good experience with aquatics that they will probably be back for food & other supplies, a larger tank, more fish, and so on. Any business thrives on return customers, if the newbie aquarist has a less than satisfying experience they will not be back.
By doing this, if Joe Newbie comes home with their Eclipse System 3 and wonders where to go after filling it & adding 3 goldfish & a common plec they will hopefully come here, have a read, and do something about their overstocked tank, the one with fish that belong in a tank many times the size of the one they have. That way they will learn what works in their size tank, and will hopefully return their fish, or only kill one purchase of fish that are incompatible with their setup.
They will also learn that the place that sold them those fish for that tank doesn't know squat, and that establishment will lose a customer. Businesses that don't have customers don't last long.
Laws that affect the uninformed & uneducated only solve the symptoms, not the problem. If you want to help solve the problem print out some small cards that have this on them;
http
/www.fishforever.co.uk/Go to your local lfs, you are probably on a first name basis with them if you have been hanging out at TFF. Explain that this is an educational non-profit site, dedicated to keeping fish healthy and happy. Ask them to hand out a card to customers.
Explain that if their customers have a good experience with aquatics that they will probably be back for food & other supplies, a larger tank, more fish, and so on. Any business thrives on return customers, if the newbie aquarist has a less than satisfying experience they will not be back.
By doing this, if Joe Newbie comes home with their Eclipse System 3 and wonders where to go after filling it & adding 3 goldfish & a common plec they will hopefully come here, have a read, and do something about their overstocked tank, the one with fish that belong in a tank many times the size of the one they have. That way they will learn what works in their size tank, and will hopefully return their fish, or only kill one purchase of fish that are incompatible with their setup.
They will also learn that the place that sold them those fish for that tank doesn't know squat, and that establishment will lose a customer. Businesses that don't have customers don't last long.
t1tanrush
Fishaholic
Sorry I must have been a bit irate, I have 3 bettas, in 3 seperate 1 gallon tanks is what I meant by that. I also have 7 female bettas in a 10g. I was given this info on a very well respected betta site about 1g for a betta.
I always thought that a. 3g was the minimum, and b. you should never ever keep males together. I dont have the experience to say that for sure (not a betta fan myself), but I'm sure someone more into bettas might be able to help you out on that one, as it sounds a bit likely you've been given some bad info there
If I were in charge of the world for a day lol I'd make sure there was mandatory labelling of fish in LFS with both common name and latin name, adult size, care needs and minimum tank size needed - preferably controlled in some way (ie had to get their labels from one body who would have the correct info).
I'd personally ban anything under 15g too, but no doubt wouldn't be too popular then...maybe just remove them from general sale so that newcomers/kids cant get these tiny tanks and put a big community of commonly found fish in them, and that way as the smaller tanks weren't totally banned - it'd mean the betta breeders and other people needing tiny tanks could still have theirs made or make their own.
With all due respect, there are far more fish out there that get much bigger than common plecs. Even gibbies get bigger than commons
As a common can go in an easily manageable tank size (4ft x 18" x 18") that most folks could fit in their room, I dont see why banning them would be fair?
Many of the plecs that get bigger also take years and years to get there. Biggest plec I've seen photos of was an L203, 70cm, and yet at a growth rate of 1" a year - is it really that big a concern? Plenty of time to get a bigger tank or rehome - unlike quick growing massive predatory fish.
Dont ban commons though. They're tiddlers compared to the main offenders.
In the UK fish prizes are illegal.
Also, why ban things less than 15? So then someone who simply wanted to get a small group of tetras for an office setting cant, or a nice tank that sits next to your arm chair.. What if you have a spawn where you only get 2-3 surviving fry from a spawn, put them in a 20g tank? smaller tanks are very useful and a lot of people have kept a bunch of different species successfully in a 10g aquarium. A lot of fish that people say can't go in a 10, can.
LisaLQ
Fish Gatherer
It's just my opinion, I'm probably rather OTT about it - I've got a 15g here, and it looks tiny to me. I just dont see the appeal/need for tiny tanks. Fish arent ornaments, they're animals.
It shouldn't be a case of "could I", but a case of "should I". Should we keep tiny tanks for our fish? Would they not be happier and healthier in a bigger tank (of course some species are apparently not - but I mean in general).
I guess it's a convenience thing. Some folks like to breed tiny dogs (look up teacup dogs) for their convenience. Some people like to keep big birds in tiny cages. Some folks like to go to the zoo and see animals in cages.
I'm just one of those folks that thinks fish should be given a bit more space to do what they were made to do - swim. While tiny rasbora may be happy in a tiny tank, your average LFS finds wouldn't be, and it's those commonly found fish that usually end up in them. After all, is a beginner to fish going to go for the cheap brightly coloured platy for £1, or a group of galaxy rasbora at £4-8 each?
Twas just an idea of mine, not a full on pet hate. I just think banning their sales from normal pet shops would cut back on the amount of kids/newcomers who dont want to spend much and yet get as many fish as poss. If they had to get a bigger tank - then they might either think twice or stock wisely. And the water quality would be easier to maintain.
I would say keep them mail order - that way impulse buyers might be put off, and yet those genuinely interested could still get them.
Ps. I read again 3g for a betta today. But glad you dont keep them all in together lol.
It shouldn't be a case of "could I", but a case of "should I". Should we keep tiny tanks for our fish? Would they not be happier and healthier in a bigger tank (of course some species are apparently not - but I mean in general).
I guess it's a convenience thing. Some folks like to breed tiny dogs (look up teacup dogs) for their convenience. Some people like to keep big birds in tiny cages. Some folks like to go to the zoo and see animals in cages.
I'm just one of those folks that thinks fish should be given a bit more space to do what they were made to do - swim. While tiny rasbora may be happy in a tiny tank, your average LFS finds wouldn't be, and it's those commonly found fish that usually end up in them. After all, is a beginner to fish going to go for the cheap brightly coloured platy for £1, or a group of galaxy rasbora at £4-8 each?
Twas just an idea of mine, not a full on pet hate. I just think banning their sales from normal pet shops would cut back on the amount of kids/newcomers who dont want to spend much and yet get as many fish as poss. If they had to get a bigger tank - then they might either think twice or stock wisely. And the water quality would be easier to maintain.
I would say keep them mail order - that way impulse buyers might be put off, and yet those genuinely interested could still get them.
Ps. I read again 3g for a betta today. But glad you dont keep them all in together lol.
SuperColey1
Planted Section
At the risk of upsetting all Betta owners, I think mine enjoys his 29G community much more than the sad bored looking Bettas I see on their own in a large 'vase'.
I keep getting told you can't have aBetta in a community tank but he loves it.
I keep getting told you can't have a Betta in a tank with a current but he goes to the current and gets blown away, and guess what, he goes back to the current again, and over, and over again.
I keep getting told that Bettas cant be with danios and glolights cos they're fin nippers. He was in quite bad nick when I got him and hes beautiful now.
Not saying that others are wrong, but I'm tired of hearing from Betta owners these things, when its obvious to see (at least in my tank) that the Betta is the same as all the other fish and like some company, and some scenery and not just plain glass with almost no substrate and no plants. (Although I do take the advice of not putting 2 Bettas in because that would just be silly)
I keep getting told you can't have aBetta in a community tank but he loves it.
I keep getting told you can't have a Betta in a tank with a current but he goes to the current and gets blown away, and guess what, he goes back to the current again, and over, and over again.
I keep getting told that Bettas cant be with danios and glolights cos they're fin nippers. He was in quite bad nick when I got him and hes beautiful now.
Not saying that others are wrong, but I'm tired of hearing from Betta owners these things, when its obvious to see (at least in my tank) that the Betta is the same as all the other fish and like some company, and some scenery and not just plain glass with almost no substrate and no plants. (Although I do take the advice of not putting 2 Bettas in because that would just be silly)
t.ropical_m.istx3
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the fish industry -as it has been said- will go downhill and other fish would become wayyy too expensive. honestly, i wouldn't be in it if i had to get a tank bigger than 20g. my friend got me a 10g for christmas and that's what i got restarted on.
cheesy feet
Fish Aficionado
Just to say i have to agree with lisa.To many people say normal plecs get 2ft.When that is almost impossible in fish tanks.Get a 4ft tank and they will be fine...
InaneCathode
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I don't agree with the idea of having law makers and beurocrats solve your problems for you. If people truely cared they'd go out and make noise about it.
Tessla
Fish Crazy
I really wish the SPCA would devote just a little bit of time to fish, it would help a lot. I've sent some e-mails to the ASPCA (and will probably resort to regular mail soon) regarding their information on fish care on their website. It's decent as a bare-bones guide, but I'm sure everyone on these forums will see the mistakes, my biggest problem with it being the goldfish information and recommendation and the total lack of stocking guidelines. I haven't heard a peep from them, all I sent were some e-mails with proper information and a request that the article be looked over and brought up to date with some better first time stocking choices, nothing angry. PETA seems to be so concerned with turning the world vegan, I won't even go there, however both champion cute furry mammals and ignore pretty much everything else.
The size and minimum tank info doesn't seem to do much good, every time I see someone setting up a new tank I tell them absolutely no plecos (unless they research species first) or chinese algae eaters and they always end up buying one for their 10 gallon anyways. Even when I tell them that I personally had a cute little sailfin just like that one in the store tank grow into a 14 inch monster (actually had the space for him fortunately) and show them fully grown plecs in bigger tanks, they nod and smile and buy one the next day anyways.
Agree that the sale of fish that grow large should be cut dramatically, I always see huge stocks of young sharks, potentially large plecos and goldfish among other things in the shops, most for well under $10. If only the people actually capable of housing these fish were the ones buying them, they'd completely disappear from the chain stores and show up in much smaller numbers at the LFS.
As far as I'm concerned, the biggest trouble with the aquarium industry is that it doesn't seem to be expensive enough. If you want to adopt a dog around here, you have to fill out an application, have him/her fixed and pay a fee of $150, way more if you want a purebred dog. If you want a fish on the other hand, you can get a feeder goldfish for $0.25, a bowl and food for a couple of bucks and go home no questions asked. If you mistreat the dog and it dies, messy paperwork and possibly jail time results and it becomes harder for you to get another one. When your fish dies, you go back and get another one for $0.25, no questions asked. Slap a higher price tag on fish that get larger/are more difficult to keep, only keep a few around and the demand for them would decrease dramatically. So long as they're easily replaceable, I doubt they'll get any respect.
The size and minimum tank info doesn't seem to do much good, every time I see someone setting up a new tank I tell them absolutely no plecos (unless they research species first) or chinese algae eaters and they always end up buying one for their 10 gallon anyways. Even when I tell them that I personally had a cute little sailfin just like that one in the store tank grow into a 14 inch monster (actually had the space for him fortunately) and show them fully grown plecs in bigger tanks, they nod and smile and buy one the next day anyways.
Agree that the sale of fish that grow large should be cut dramatically, I always see huge stocks of young sharks, potentially large plecos and goldfish among other things in the shops, most for well under $10. If only the people actually capable of housing these fish were the ones buying them, they'd completely disappear from the chain stores and show up in much smaller numbers at the LFS.
I agree, 15g is tiny! However, 10-15gallon setups can be put to very good use as hospital and quarantine setups, and because they are so inexpensive I'll always keep at least one in storage just for that reason. Aside from an emergency tank in storage, the only tanks I need are the big ones. The real issue with most small setups though is that they are marketed as perfect for goldfish to the general public when anything under 10 gallons (and above 1 gallon) really should be marked as the minimum for a single male betta.LisaLQ said:
As far as I'm concerned, the biggest trouble with the aquarium industry is that it doesn't seem to be expensive enough. If you want to adopt a dog around here, you have to fill out an application, have him/her fixed and pay a fee of $150, way more if you want a purebred dog. If you want a fish on the other hand, you can get a feeder goldfish for $0.25, a bowl and food for a couple of bucks and go home no questions asked. If you mistreat the dog and it dies, messy paperwork and possibly jail time results and it becomes harder for you to get another one. When your fish dies, you go back and get another one for $0.25, no questions asked. Slap a higher price tag on fish that get larger/are more difficult to keep, only keep a few around and the demand for them would decrease dramatically. So long as they're easily replaceable, I doubt they'll get any respect.
SamUK
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yea you can keep betta in a 1g. i could keep an oscar in a 10g but its not much fun for the fish. i think even 3g is a bit small.
my betta actively swims round his 8g tank and i wouldnt give him anything less. theres a difference between thriving and surviving
then how come the other day someone posted a pic of there 18 years old plec that was only 12" when mines coming on 2 now and hes pushing past 12".
the difference? one was in a 4' and mine was in a 6x2 footprint.
you even say yourself its ALMOST impossible. not totally impossible so we should give them the chance to do that.
edited to add : people jus need to be informed of the siz that fish grow too properly. if you can house a fish then dont buy it. its not like these people dont have a choice.
its like, you wouldnt buy a greyhound if you lived on the 65th floor in the middle of london or some other big city. dont buy a potentially huge plec if you dont have a big tank. theres loads available that wont outgrow even a 20g.
True. My LFS (the good one), has three common plecs in a 200 gallon tank in the front. One of them looks to be about 2 ft, and the other two are about a foot and a half. So it can happen, and it appears to be doing so with three different fish which suggests that its not just chance, its truely proper care. I don't see why people don't just buy smaller pleco species.
LisaLQ
Fish Gatherer
Oooh Sam dont get me started on greyhounds. That was a typical stereotype - greyhounds are the only dogs some rescues recommend for flats, because they're so lazy! Complete myth that they need to be in a house with a big garden with tonnes of exercise.
Erm, how did we get onto dogs?
Erm, how did we get onto dogs?
SamUK
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well we must of had a pretty hyper active one lol.
would a wippet of worked better? german sheperd?
would a wippet of worked better? german sheperd?
Can I stick up on behalf of small tanks and point out not everyone can afford these massive 75g behemoths that some people are lucky enough to have? Christ, I would love one of those, don't get me wrong, I'd sell a kidney for it, but until I can afford it, I just have to be careful with stocking my smaller tanks. (Fear not, the guppy fry listed in my sig will be finding a new home elsewhere in the interests of saving space). So no, I don't think they should ban small tanks as it would exclude a lot of people from the hobby, but I definitely agree with the idea of making it very clear what you can and can't have in said tanks. *nod*
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