Tetra Safe Start And Cycling My New Tank

[ainsy]

Fair enough - but I still think the bacteria had something to do with it - It was a relatively high bioload compared to the amount of plants.

 

[Prime Ordeal]

I still think the bacteria had something to do with it...

They may well have done and I don't necessarily disagree. The point though is that because you were 'Planted (quite heavily!)' you can't, with any certainty, claim that the Tetra Safe Start definitely had any benefit.

The same goes for snazy in this thread and a chap in another thread who cyled with Safe Start and also had ten moss balls and a few other plants in the tank. Under those conditions you can never state that the Safe Start had any beneficial effect.

I'm not anti Tetra Safe Start, I'm just trying to point out the folly of promoting its benefits when there are other complicating factors, i.e. plants, in the equation.

 

[afremont]

I'm not anti Tetra Safe Start, I'm just trying to point out the folly of promoting its benefits when there are other complicating factors, i.e. plants, in the equation.

My experience with TSS is that I have successfully started 6 tanks with it. No plants, everything brand new and sterile each time. Put fish and TSS in the prepared tank and that's it, instant cycle every time. No nitrites, just nitrates appearing after about a week. All you have to do is not mess with it. Using Amquel will mess it up since it starves the bacteria. This is all you need to know about using it straight from Tetra:
http/www.fishlore.com/fishforum/aquarium-nitrogen-cycle/58116-q-tetra-tetra-safestart.html
Ammonia locking additives will cause problems, so since I use Prime I let my water sit for 48 hours before using it in a new tank.

Anecdotal Evidence: I put 9 dwarf gourami rescue fish into a brand new 20G tank (no need to say anything, I already know but it was better than the 10g hospital that they were living in) and poured in a bottle of TSS. Worked fine. Split them up by starting another 20G tank the same way, everybody is fine. I will say that I would daily measure about .25 to .5ppm of ammonia, 0 nitrites. My tap water starts off with that level of measurable ammonia (API kit) after being treated though. I assumed it to be ammonium, but wondered why it would take weeks to finally get to actual 0 (yellow). I'm now thinking that it may be the food source that comes in the bottle of TSS (ammonia based) being time released, but this is just a guess. I never measure any nitrItes in a new tank as it progresses, just straight to nitrAtes.

I wrecked a biological filter in a separate tank by replacing the pad and rinsing it in tap water. I didn't kill everything completely, but I did notice a nitrIte spike. I must have missed the brief ammonia spike that surely occurred. I waited for several days for the nitrIte levels to subside, but it just wouldn't go down fast enough for me. I got worried about the fish and decided to try TSS as a quick fix. Dumped a bottle in and 24 hours later, no nitrItes. Miracle in a bottle if you ask me.

I'm well aware of the other products that don't work. Products that don't expire or that need multiple applications fall into this category. However, I believe that we are starting to see the emergence of other new products that can do the same thing as TSS. I hope so, because TSS is expensive. But the peace of mind and convenience are priceless. No affiliation yada yada yada. Just a very impressed and satisfied customer.

It has a finite shelf life, look at the bottom of the bottle before buying it. It also is ruined by high heat levels or freezing. IMO, if you want to see it work, set up a new tank and let it filter for 48 hours to clear the water and let the ammonia locker let up. Then put the fish you want and add the TSS. I like to pour some of it straight into the filter and near the intake pipe.

EDIT: I wanted to add some things. My pH is 7.6 and doesn't appear to change when using the TSS.

I don't believe for a minute that trying to test TSS using ammonia or fish food is a valid method. The tank needs nitrosomonas and nitrospira bacteria. It is my understanding that neither of these are in the TSS bottle, they come from the fish. These bacteria can't live on a shelf for a year. The bottle contains accelerators (nitrobacter?) that get the cycle going immediately, but you have to have a supply of nitrosomonas, nitrospira and ammonia from the start.

 

[snazy]

I have posted the pictures and updated the log on the initial post on page one. The edit button was corrected for me.
Thanks Tolak

The ammonia has gone down to 0.25ppm, still no nitrItes though and nitrates are at 5ppm. The Ph has dropped to what It is blue on the low Ph scale on the Api test. Here it is how it looks on the high Ph api test:

 

[Prime Ordeal]

So it looks like: Plants 1 - 0 Tetra Safe Start.

 

[snazy]

Well, it seems the plants started eating the ammonia even faster. Poor tetra safe start can't catch up with them
So yeah, so much the score of the competition is plants 1:0 tetra safe start.
It's been complete 7 full days so far since I started this cycle and the plants have eaten 1.75ppm ammonia for this period. How many fish do you think I can put with this rate?

 

[Prime Ordeal]

Well, it seems the plants started eating the ammonia even faster. Poor tetra safe start can't catch up with them
So yeah, so much the score of the competition is plants 1:0 tetra safe start.
It's been complete 7 full days so far since I started this cycle and the plants have eaten 1.75ppm ammonia for this period. How many fish do you think I can put with this rate?

I think you could easily keep six 5cm fish if the plants can sustain that rate. No plecs or any other type of poo-machine though.

 

[Prime Ordeal]

I don't believe for a minute that trying to test TSS using ammonia or fish food is a valid method. The tank needs nitrosomonas and nitrospira bacteria. It is my understanding that neither of these are in the TSS bottle, they come from the fish. These bacteria can't live on a shelf for a year. The bottle contains accelerators (nitrobacter?) that get the cycle going immediately, but you have to have a supply of nitrosomonas, nitrospira and ammonia from the start.

You've got some very confused ideas there afremont.

First - TSS comes with Nitrosomonas, Nitrosospira and Nitrospira in the bottle.
Second - using bottled ammonia or fish food to produce the ammonia is no different than having fish produce it. Ammonia is ammonia and the bacteria don't care about its source.
Third - Fish will inevitably carry some of the required nitrifying bacteria on their body but not in any substantial quantity.
Fourth - the bacteria in TSS are kept in a suspended state by additives in the bottle. When diluted in the tank the inhibitors are rendered ineffective and the bacteria get to work.

So using TSS with a source that isn't from fish is perfectly valid.

I think you may be confusing TSS with some other bottled products which really do not contain any bacteria but do contain ammonia and a blend of other nutrients to aid in the establishment of nitrifying bacteria.

 

[snazy]

In all honesty Prime Ordeal, whether Afremont is right or wrong what the TSS contains really doesn't ivalidate that he has cycled 6 tanks the same way I cycled my 2 previous tanks.
What would be for example the benefit as well to lie about it, especially considering the risks that someone would take if they chose to believe it.
We don't even know how a famous dechlorinator like Prime works and what chemicals it contains, but we suddenly know all about TSS.

At this point of the fish cycle that I am currently doing now, I am inclined to believe the plants are eating ammonia and the cycle hasn't started.

To find out whether it is the plants, or bacteria, I am open to suggestions. I am not in major hurry to move the fish in.
I am thinking of increasing the dose next time to 2ppm, or would more of that be better?

 

[afremont]

I don't believe for a minute that trying to test TSS using ammonia or fish food is a valid method. The tank needs nitrosomonas and nitrospira bacteria. It is my understanding that neither of these are in the TSS bottle, they come from the fish. These bacteria can't live on a shelf for a year. The bottle contains accelerators (nitrobacter?) that get the cycle going immediately, but you have to have a supply of nitrosomonas, nitrospira and ammonia from the start.

You've got some very confused ideas there afremont.

First - TSS comes with Nitrosomonas, Nitrosospira and Nitrospira in the bottle.
Second - using bottled ammonia or fish food to produce the ammonia is no different than having fish produce it. Ammonia is ammonia and the bacteria don't care about its source.
Third - Fish will inevitably carry some of the required nitrifying bacteria on their body but not in any substantial quantity.
Fourth - the bacteria in TSS are kept in a suspended state by additives in the bottle. When diluted in the tank the inhibitors are rendered ineffective and the bacteria get to work.

So using TSS with a source that isn't from fish is perfectly valid.

I think you may be confusing TSS with some other bottled products which really do not contain any bacteria but do contain ammonia and a blend of other nutrients to aid in the establishment of nitrifying bacteria.

Could you point me to a source showing that TSS contains nitrosomonas and nitrospira?
I said the bottled ammonia can't provide any bacteria to start a tank cycle and I stand by that.

 

[Prime Ordeal]

Could you point me to a source showing that TSS contains nitrosomonas and nitrospira?
From the horse's mouth: http/www.tetra-fish.com/sites/tetrafish/catalog/Detail.aspx?id=4224

I said the bottled ammonia can't provide any bacteria to start a tank cycle and I stand by that.
Like I said, you've got some very confused ideas!

 

[afremont]

Could you point me to a source showing that TSS contains nitrosomonas and nitrospira?
From the horse's mouth: http/www.tetra-fish.com/sites/tetrafish/catalog/Detail.aspx?id=4224

I said the bottled ammonia can't provide any bacteria to start a tank cycle and I stand by that.
Like I said, you've got some very confused ideas!

Sure enough, they do now state that, they used to be quite secretive about it. I took the word of my LFS owner. Oops.
Are you suggesting that a sterile tank can be cycled by only adding ammonia to the water and no bacterial source? Where would the initial bacteria come from? I suppose there might be a few floating around in the air, but with a 24 hour time to double, it would add a large amount of time to get the bacteria going. Nitrosomonas is even slower to multiply.
I still think it's an invalid way to test a product that is designed to be used with actual fish. Why not just start a tank with some fish and TSS and evaluate it like that? I've done it six times and it worked every time. The first time I used only a couple of fish, but got braver over time. Every time it was able to immediately assume the bio-load. I test my water religiously.

 

[Primous]

Sure enough, they do now state that, they used to be quite secretive about it. I took the word of my LFS owner. Oops.
Are you suggesting that a sterile tank can be cycled by only adding ammonia to the water and no bacterial source? Where would the initial bacteria come from? I suppose there might be a few floating around in the air, but with a 24 hour time to double, it would add a large amount of time to get the bacteria going. Nitrosomonas is even slower to multiply.

They are already in the water alongside a plethora of other bacterias most of which would cause you great pain and even death like "back in the day" before scientist came up with a way to sterilize/nuetralize/make safe our drinking water. In most cases chlorine and the other treatments added to the water don't completely eradicate the bacs from our drinking water but rather put them in a dormant state. We encourage them by dechlorinating the water and adding a food source aka ammonia.



I have great respect for the OP but I see absolutely nothing in this thread that would suggest or even hint that there may be bacs in a bottle. So far, it seems no more than is a regular fishless cycle or did I miss something?

 

[Prime Ordeal]

Are you suggesting that a sterile tank can be cycled by only adding ammonia to the water and no bacterial source? Where would the initial bacteria come from?

You can never get a perfectly sterile tank and so some would be there whatever you do and, yes, some would inevitably find their way in from the air. But, in practise,the bacteria come from the water you fill the tank with.

I still think it's an invalid way to test a product that is designed to be used with actual fish.

Can you explain why? I've already explained that the source of ammonia is irrelevant.

 

[afremont]

Are you suggesting that a sterile tank can be cycled by only adding ammonia to the water and no bacterial source? Where would the initial bacteria come from?

You can never get a perfectly sterile tank and so some would be there whatever you do and, yes, some would inevitably find their way in from the air. But, in practise,the bacteria come from the water you fill the tank with.

I still think it's an invalid way to test a product that is designed to be used with actual fish.

Can you explain why? I've already explained that the source of ammonia is irrelevant.

I guess I find it extremely hard to believe that treated tap water could come with any significant amount of beneficial bacteria. As I said, with the doubling time of 24 hours, even one lowly danio dipped into the water should transfer enough bacteria to take weeks off waiting for what might be present naturally in the environment, kinda like touching bread vs. waiting for it to mold on its own. Once the bacteria is present, I have no problem believing that ammonia from a bottle, or rotting flakes can sustain it. It seems reasonable that many non-desirable bacteria and fungi would be growing in the tank during the weeks (or months) of waiting out the fishless cycle, perhaps this is one reason as to why so many suffer thru unexplainable cycle stalls. OTOH, I could see how a piece of raw shrimp could provide a significant starter culture of bacteria that you might want.

As for the guy that said it would kill me, I grew up drinking well water and then spring water (artesian surface) that had not been treated at all. I wouldn't drink that surface water now, but it certainly didn't hurt my family at the time. Sure it had plenty of bacteria in it, but most bacteria are relatively harmless. Most people around us drank water from a cistern. Just imagine what grows down there.