Tetra Fish In Cycling

[the_lock_man]

As Benthyer said, Shelley, you aren't the first and you won't be the last. It's a shame that the fish shop won't take the fish back, maybe it's time to find another shop....
 
Listen closely to what TwoTankAmin says. At the risk of inflating his ego to the point of explosion, he does know what he's talking about.

 

[Shelley866]

Internet problems today sorry all and sorry TwoTankAmin I think I posted my question about which fish to move before you posted your response therefore it looked as if I wasn't listening! Thank you benthyer for your incredibly kind offer! But I've found a solution or at least I think so....to the best if my ability.... I have re-homed 2 neon tetras, 2 emperor tetras, I can't test the waters in the tanks until tomorrow as the test kit hasn't been delivered (I have to do online shopping due to agoraphobia) ........ In tank A I now have 8 neon tetra, 2 catfish and the betta. In tank B I have 8 emperor tetra, 4 platys and 1 catfish ..... I have re-done the water by 50% in tank 1 as that is the original tank and have treated it with TSS. I've also added more plants and kept the light off. In tank B I have followed TSS to the letter, added a fair amount if plants and am now sitting with fingers crossed staring at a tank with lights off also! The catfish are - 2 x bristlenose pleco and spotted pleco ...... Hmmm are they even actually catfish??

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Again- I told you to double dose the SafeStart. The directions for using it and adding fish must state somewhere to only add a few fish. You need to reread the Rescue article part I again. there are only two solutions to your situation, remove a lot ,ore fish or add a lot more bacteria. In your case this means at least to double the amount, aside from that follow the directions.
 
And yes you are not paying attention as far as I can tell. I laid things out very clearly to get you started on a next to impossible task. Here is what I wrote above:
 

 
5. Both tanks should have new dechlored water to the greatest extent possible. You want the lowest levels of ammonia (and possible nitrite) to start. Once the fish are in place, turn off the lights and follow the directions from SafeStart to the letter. However, in your case you are going to do things differently in one respect. Double the amount of safe start suggested for a 70l tank. Extra bacteria will not harm things and will work better overall.

 
There are two clear instruction you have ignored. A 50% water change is not as much as you can. that would be at least 80% and possibly more. Leaving 50% did not remove the amount of bad things you could have.  next, from your post above it appears as if you did not double the amount of SafeStart that was put into each tank. Let me explain why these things were suggested.
 
First, as noted the water change would remove most of the nitrogenous compounds. The ppms of any ammonia. nitrite and nitrate would have been greatly reduced.This is important because fish exhale ammonia, their poop becomes ammonia, all decaying organics become ammonia. You have almost no control over the amount of ammonia being created in your tanks. In a fishless this can only be done by controlling the number of fish. Your tanks are overstocked. That leaves you only one other alternative, to get bacteria which deal with the problem into the tanks. If you did use a double dose, then you did not indicate this in your post so I assumed you had not.
 
If the tank is overstocked, then you must also overstock the bacteria. So dosing SafeStart at the suggested normal dose is insufficient in your case.
 
I am still awaiting information from you on the size of the fish and what type of cats. Different fish will have different levels of sensitivity to ammonia, this is not only on a species basis but on the developmental stages of the fish. If you have cory catfish, these should have been the first fish rehomed not the tetras. Oddly enough some tetras handle more ammonia than is believed in the hobby (for the curious- http/www.scielo.br/pdf/aa/v38n4/v38n4a23.pdf )
 
Testing regularly now is the key to the survival of your fish. Twice a day for sure. Ammonia levels must be known and the presence of nitrite detected when and if it appears.

 

[Shelley866]

No they are not cory catfish (see above) ..... Two are about 2-3 cm and one is about 10 cm. it's the spotted pleco that is about 10 cm nose to tail. I added 2x bottle each of TSS so to be safe. I also have another bottle so I will do at least 80 % in tank A1 and add that plus water conditioner again. No need in tank B considering it is fresh water from yesterday. Although I topped the tank up today with more TSS. Tomorrow I will have the test kit so will be sure to post my readings.

 

[AmtotheBurr]

You're doing the best you can. Keep working a title and hopefully the loss will be minimal

 

[Shelley866]

Both tanks reading the same right now -
Ph 7.6
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 0
Ammonia 4
Temps are 25.5 - 26

All fish very active, tank water has become crystal clear. Keeping an eye on the ammonia because it is very high isn't it but TSS say not to change the water for the first two weeks....... If the fish start showing signs I guess that is the time to do a water change? As it is there are no signs at all of ammonia distress. Feeding every other day only as much as is eaten. Will check again tomorrow morning

 

[TwoTankAmin]

If your numbers above are correct you need to do a large water change unless ammonia starts dropping fast.
 
Your NH3 levels are pushing 0.10 where 0.05 is considered the danger line. Do not allow it to go higher, This means testing about 3 - 4 times a day.
 

 
NH3 is highly toxic and frequently limits fish production in intensive systems. It is also dynamic, and when it enters the aquatic system, an equilibrium is established between NH3 and ammonium (NH4+). Of the two, NH3 is far more toxic to fish, and its formation is favored by high pH (>7) and water temperature. When pH exceeds ∼8.5, any NH3 present can be dangerous. In general, a normally functioning aquatic system should contain no measurable NH3 because as soon as it enters the system, it should be removed by aerobic bacteria in the environment. Ammonia test kits do not typically measure NH3 directly but instead measure the combination of NH3 and NH4, referred to as total ammonia nitrogen (TAN). A TAN <1 mg/L is usually not cause for concern unless the pH is > 8.5. However, if the amount of NH3 is increased, an explanation should be sought. The amount of toxic NH3 present can be calculated using the TAN, pH, and water temperature. When NH3 levels exceed 0.05 mg/L, damage to gills becomes apparent; levels of 2.0 mg/L are lethal for many fish. Fish exposed to ammonia may be lethargic and have poor appetites. Acute toxicity may be suggested by neurologic signs such as spinning, disorientation and convulsions.

from http/www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/exotic_and_laboratory_animals/fish/environmental_diseases_of_fish.html?qt=&sc=&alt=
 
The Safe Start directions are not based on the level of stocking you have, they are based on way fewer fish.

 

[Shelley866]

Ok advice taken thanks, will post results ...

 

[Shelley866]

Tank A consistently at the above results. Fish are all seemingly very happy still. Eating well, not darting around, flashing or showing any distress.

Tank B
Ph 7.6
Ammonia .25
Nitrate 0
Nitrite 0

 

[TwoTankAmin]

The first ting that comes to mind is that you did not put the same amount of Safe Start into each tank. If you got the bio-loads close to even and moved about 1/2 the items from the original tank into the new one, you should be processing things at a similar rate.
 
There is no reason if you followed a similar methodology in both tanks that your readings would be so radically different between the two tanks. It is not safe to have 4 ppm of total ammonia in either tank.
 
The one good things is that with bottled bacteria it attaches to things pretty fast. Tetra says to minimize water changes because that speeds up the reproduction of the bacteria. However, 4 ppm of ammonia in your tanks is too high for any length of time for the fish. You need to try and keep it no higher than 2 ppm and then not more than several days at that level.
 
I am hoping tank B is actually functioning properly. The ammonia level at .25 ppm is not a worry. The lack of nitrite looks good too and the plants wcould account for the 0 nitrate. But those numbers could mean things are at the beginning of rthings and ammonia is about to rise.
 
Please keep testing twice a day and posting results for both tanks. I am less concerned with nitrate readings. Between the plants and the fact the nitrate tests can be very inaccurate between 0 and 20 ppm, I tend to mistrust nitrate results.

 

[Shelley866]

For both tanks I put in two bottles of safestart. The only difference is is that tank B was completely fresh aside from substrate from tank A. Tank A had an 80 % water change which I then treated with fresh start and then safestart 24 hours later. I did another 40% water change on tank A today but the results of the test still came back as 4.0 ppm so I will do another 2 x 25 % change tomorrow. I'll keep testing both tanks and keep posting the results here thank you. Tank A has driftwood and is heavily planted and tank B is purely heavily planted.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

OK something is wrong here. If you have 4 ppm of ammonia in water and you change 40% you should end up with 60% of that concentration or 2.4 ppm. Since the API test card goes up to 8 ppm and that is easy to spot, its hard to confuse. The is no way that the ammonia should be at 4 ppm no matter what you do, especially with all that Safe Start in the tank.
 
How are you testing for ammonia? tell me exactly what you do step by step from starting with taking the kit out of the box? Include evertything you do such s rinsing the tube and cap to where you collect the sample from in the tank.
 
What about nitrite readings?

 

[Shelley866]

Ok so I take the tube plus lid out of the box, dip it into the aquarium at the top and fill it to the line marked on the test tube. I take bottle 1 and add 8 drops as per instructions. I put on the cap and invert it. I take off the cap and put in 8 drops from bottle 2. I replace the cap again and shake vigorously. I then leave it for 5 minutes for the results. After doing the test I rinse the test tube and cap with tap water. I then let both air dry until I put them back in the box for the next test. I have tested the tap water to see if there is anything in there and it's a clear 0. I don't understand either because although tank B is newer I am doing absolutely nothing different with either tank. I am feeding a small amount every other day and only as much as is eaten and the fish are acting completely normally. Both tanks also have very clear water. I was going to do 2 x 25% water changes today in tank A but am thinking maybe another 40 or 50% and then another 25% if it is still high after testing??

 

[Shelley866]

Oh also the nitrite readings I do in exactly the same way but change the amount of drops put in as per instructions.

This morning the readings of tank A are -

Ph 7.6 l and 8.0 h
Ammonia between 2.0 ppm and 4.0 ppm as far as my eyes are being able to see!
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 0

 

[TwoTankAmin]

OK- I want you tp alter how you do the testing slightly.
 
1. Take out the test tube to be used and rinse it in tap water. Be sure to rinse the cap as well.
2. Samples taken from the tank should be collected deeper down in the tank and not from the surface. there are often oils and dust etc floating on the syrface that we cannot see,
3. After the tap water rinse, do a tank water rinse. Fill the tube with tank water, then pour it out onto the cap to rinse it as well.
4. Collect the sample to be tested as describe in #2 above.
5. Except for the the nitrate test, vigorous shaking is not needed. merely invert the test tube back and forth several times to mix it.
 
Here is the API vid on how to test for ammonia:
[media]https/youtu.be/W8RcXLahFxk[/media]
 
When using Prime as your dechlor it is important to test ASAP after the tank is refilled. Here is what SeaChem says in this respect:

A salicylate based kit can be used, but with caution. Under the conditions of a salicylate kit the ammonia-Prime complex will be broken down eventually giving a false reading of ammonia (same as with other products like Prime®), so the key with a salicylate kit is to take the reading right away.

from http/www.seachem.com/support/FAQs/Prime.html
 
The other thing is you should learn how to use the Ammonia calculator here http/www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/FreeAmmonia.php Here are the directions in the Rescuing  Fish In Cycles Gone wild Part II for using this calculator:
 

 
1. Choose NH (NH3 + NH4)*
2. Enter in the total ammonia reading from your test, choose ppm.
3. For a fresh water tank, enter 0 for the salinity.
4. Enter your tank’s current pH.
5. Enter your tank temperature and choose F or C, whichever applies.
6. Click Calculate.
 
The number you want to know is the one for NH3.
 
[* If your kit measures ammonia as nitrogen aka –N, choose NH-N (NH3-N + NH4-N) in step 1. above.]

from http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/433778-rescuing-a-fish-in-cycle-gone-wild-part-il/
 
This will allow you to get the NH3 readings as soon as you test rather than waiting for me to post them. Your goal is to prevent NH3 levels from getting to .05 ppm or higher.