Tankless Cycling

[plateletboy]

Dear all,

I just thought id let you know something really groovy I did a couple of weeks ago -although a lot of you cynics out there probably wont believe me!! This will kinda be two new ideas that ive been experimenting with since starting in fish keeping at the beginning of the year. Sorry this will be so long……….

I’m a biochemist by trade so have a lot of access to chemicals that most of you wont, and have been reading lots of microbiology papers - so I started to think about new ways of starting a tank.......

The main problem with ANY cycling is the delay for the nitrobacter to 'catch up' and start catabolising (breaking down) the nitrite that the nitrosomonas makes from ammonia. Secondly, as both species of bug need to live together in nature - generally in mud!! - they have the rather simple property that their ‘breakdown products’ inhibits the growth of each other – it doesn’t kill them, just stops them multiplying. For example, too much ammonia inhibits growth of nitrobacter (the nitrite eater), whilst too much nitrite inhibits nitrosomonas (ammonia eater) – this means that they have to live together in nature in relatively equal numbers to complete the breakdown of each to eventually nitrate……

We seem to have so many posts from people about their cycles stalling, and I would bet that this happens because of this - in particular 5ppm is too much ammonia for decent growth of nitrobacter!! This situation needs very large water changes to sort out…..

So what I did was to get rid of the tank completely and had my external eheim 2213 running in a 10 litre container with an airstone in it. This enabled be to add small amounts of ammonia, up to around 1 ppm, and let this run though the filter 1000’s of times an hour (cause it is such a small volume, and thus a small TOTAL amount of ammonia). After adding a filter squeeze from an established tank, and letting this run for a day, I could see ammonia going down and nitrite rising, etc, etc…… Woo-Hoo….

At this point I threw away all the water, got fresh dechlor tap water and ran this through, again adding 1ppm ammonia – next day this had gone and nitrites increased less (indicating some full conversion to nitrate). A day later no nitrites were seen either, indicating an ‘equal population’ of BOTH types of bacteria. Now at this stage the numbers of bacteria are low and may only support a single fish, but because BOTH types are now present in relatively equal numbers you can start to increase the dose of ammonia and not have to worry about the inhibition of one type or another, as described above.

The take home message is DO NOT use such a high dose of ammonia initially, but do use a small volume of water so that you can easy monitor the ammonia being broken down. When neither ammonia nor nitrite can be detected you can start increasing the ammonia dose to get that large bacteria base we all want!!!!! I’ve done this several times now and it works a treat. You can also get a filter cycled before you have the tank setup!! I am aware that bacteria also live on plants rocks and gravel!!

As for cycling a filter in ONLY FOUR HOURS, you’ll have to wait – this post is way too long….
But believe me it really does work, and you only need something we all throw away every week?!?

Copyright PlateletBoy 2004

 

[bunjiweb]

Sounds extremely interesting so far!

I think people spend far too long on cycling their tanks As I have cycled with fish 3 times now and the 6 danios I used are still alive and well and the levels are perfect in all of my tanks.

If you could perfect the 24 hour cycle I think you would make alot of money

Ben

 

[Becca]

Wow...that post sounds amazing. And unlike some other articles I've read on the web where someone claims to be able to do something, you actually sound like you know what you're talking about.

Keep us posted!!!

 

[cutechic]

I agree, it sounds like a great method

 

[luxum]

So how long until you have a colony that can support a full load?

And another question since you are a biochemist- if high levels inhibit growth, how do the colonies ever overcome this? When establishing the cycle, there are always spikes of ammonia and nitrite, but if you are patient and wait, the bacteria always catch up. How does that happen?

 

[Bol]

I have a few questions:

After adding a filter squeeze from an established tank, and letting this run for a day, I could see ammonia going down and nitrite rising, etc, etc……

By 'filter squeeze', you mean you 'seeded' the new water with the liquid and debris squeezed from mature media, correct? That is, you did not incorporate the mature media in the new filter?

in particular 5ppm is too much ammonia for decent growth of nitrobacter!!

cause it is such a small volume, and thus a small TOTAL amount of ammonia

The take home message is DO NOT use such a high dose of ammonia initially, but do use a small volume of water so that you can easy monitor the ammonia being broken down.

Which, in your opinion, is the more significant factor? A small total amount of ammonia, or a small concentration of ammonia?


Also, this is only somewhat tangentially related, but what do you think about thefindings of Dr. Tim Hovanec, namely that Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacter are not the genera responsible for nitrification in a typical aquarium?

 

[CFC]

Anyone with a already existing tank can have a new tank set up and ready for fish within 2 hours, or as long as the tank takes to fill with water anyway.
New colonies of bacteria can be seeded from established media and will quickly multiply to the levels needed to support a well stocked tank. I havent cycled a new tank since i set up my first many years ago and i now have 12.

 

[utahfish]

i just filled it with water palnts substrate put in the dechlorinator let it filtre for about two days chucked in some zebras and a rainbow shark and called it good. my shark is really big now and my four zebras are a pain in the but but alive and kicking. maybe i got lucky but it's all good.

 

[plateletboy]

Luxum: I reakon you can have a full load of bacteria within 10 days - which is about the best ever you can get using 5ppm ammonia fishless cycling if everything goes perfect. The advantage of using a small container out of the tank is that you can monitor the breakdown of ammonia much quicker as there is less total ammonia to be processed.

The bacteria arent killed by an ammonia/nitrite spike, it just really slows their ability to reproduce - which is what we want. When you have an ammonia spike nitrobacter (nitirite eater) is multipling very slowly, whilst nitrosomonas (ammonia eater) is reproducing rapidly. This results in a large 'ammonia eater' population and nitrite rising rapidly. At this stage the high nitrite inhibits the ammonia eaters growth allowing the nitrite eater to catch up - it is this inhibition on each other that causes tanks to stall and takes the time. I've also cycled a filter by adding ammonia and sodium nitrite at the same time to feed both - but thats another story...

Bol: Yes, im just squeezing a sponge to sed the tank with a starter culture. The most important is the concentration of ammonia as this is what ultimately affects nitrobacter. Having a large toital amount, ie large volume at low conc, just means it takes longer for the bugs that are there to process it all so that you cant monitor the ammonia breakdown so quickly.

when ive done a bit more work (at work!!) ill post how to get the four hour cycle thingy from waste!!

 

[luxum]

I've also cycled a filter by adding ammonia and sodium nitrite at the same time to feed both - but thats another story...

I would be very interested in hearing that story!

 

[plateletboy]

Luxum,

If you can get your hands on sodium nitrite - i think it maybe available commercially as it is used in canning meats and fish - you can feed both bacteria at the same time.

I used ~0.5 ppm ammonia, and 0.5ppm nitrite with a very small starter culture. This ends up feeding both bugs from the word go, and at a level which doesnt inhibit growth of either. With my 10 L container and tankless cycling you can see the nitrite you've added drop overnight (depending how big the starter culture was)

where to get sodium nitrite from though..........
i think sigma chemical company - were we get everything in the lab from - will let individuals buy stuff if you can explain why and its not a controlled substance (bomb making, drugs, etc!!)

 

[plateletboy]

ive just found this, about halfway down the page:

http/www.askthemeatman.com/rubs,_cures_a...odium%20nitrite

PB