Stalled Cycle?

[tomdaven]

Hi,
I'm on day 11 of a fishless/plantless cycle, having used Dr.Tims one and only nitrifiying bacteria on day 1, along with his Ammonium Chloride.

My tank water is at 26 degrees c.
Tap water PH is 6.8 and Alkalinity (as CaCO3) is an average of18.1 mg/L according to the water companies website.

Ammonia has remained at 3ppm throughout. Nitrite appeared at 0.25 on day 5 and rose to 0.5 on day 7.

Readings today - Ammonia 3, Nitrite 0.5, PH 6.6.

My concern is that the PH has dropped and this is slowing/stalling the cycle?
Thanks for any help.

 

[carligraceee]

Hi,
I'm on day 11 of a fishless/plantless cycle, having used Dr.Tims one and only nitrifiying bacteria on day 1, along with his Ammonium Chloride.

My tank water is at 26 degrees c.
Tap water PH is 6.8 and Alkalinity (as CaCO3) is an average of18.1 mg/L according to the water companies website.

Ammonia has remained at 3ppm throughout. Nitrite appeared at 0.25 on day 5 and rose to 0.5 on day 7.

Readings today - Ammonia 3, Nitrite 0.5, PH 6.6.

My concern is that the PH has dropped and this is slowing/stalling the cycle?
Thanks for any help.

When I was cycling my tank, I didn't see much fluctuation of the pH levels, matters of only .1 to .2 differences. I will link my Google Sheets so you can see what I am talking about.
Carli's Cycle

But fluctuation is very normal, from what I know, not much can stall a cycle and some cycles take longer than others. Patience is key with the cycle, but I know how frustrating it can be.

I don't think pH has too much impact on the cycle as is, but I would be concerned if it dropped or sky-rocketed by whole numbers.

I am sure someone else might be able to help you a bit more, but you can check out my Google Sheet to see an example of what a month long cycle looked like!

 

[tomdaven]

When I was cycling my tank, I didn't see much fluctuation of the pH levels, matters of only .1 to .2 differences. I will link my Google Sheets so you can see what I am talking about.
Carli's Cycle

But fluctuation is very normal, from what I know, not much can stall a cycle and some cycles take longer than others. Patience is key with the cycle, but I know how frustrating it can be.

I don't think pH has too much impact on the cycle as is, but I would be concerned if it dropped or sky-rocketed by whole numbers.

I am sure someone else might be able to help you a bit more, but you can check out my Google Sheet to see an example of what a month long cycle looked like!

Thanks, can u unlock the Google Sheet

 

[carligraceee]

Thanks, can u unlock the Google Sheet

I published it, here is the link! It should download on your device as a pdf!

Carli's Cycle

 

[tomdaven]

I published it, here is the link! It should download on your device as a pdf!

Carli's Cycle

Thanks,
I suppose the the thing that stands out is that your ammonia dropped after 3 days and then the tank dealt with any new doses very quickly, mine has stayed consistent for 11 days at 3ppm. I know every tank is different so will see how things go.

Were you doing water changes, as your your Nitrate drops to zero at one point?

appreciate the help

 

[carligraceee]

Thanks,

I suppose the the thing that stands out is that your ammonia dropped after 3 days and then the tank dealt with any new doses very quickly, mine has stayed consistent for 11 days at 3ppm. I know every tank is different so will see how things go.

Were you doing water changes, as your your Nitrate drops to zero at one point?

appreciate the help

i didn’t do any water changes until after the cycle finished. yes, every tank is different ! i had some bio boosters in my filter when i cycled as well, if you’d like i can link to wear you can find them. they create a place in the filter for extra beneficial bacteria to live as well as in the filter cartridge!

 

[Slaphppy7]

Did you use a water conditioner when you first started out?...if so, which one?...which test kit do you have?

The beneficial bacteria will populate your filter and grow faster as a warmer temp, crank the tank water up to 28C, or so...but, warmer water holds less O2, which the BB need to flourish, so get a bubbler going to aid in surface agitation/gas exchange

11 days isn't very long for a cycle to develop, all of mine have taken at least 3 weeks

 

[tomdaven]

Did you use a water conditioner when you first started out?...if so, which one?...which test kit do you have?

The beneficial bacteria will populate your filter and grow faster as a warmer temp, crank the tank water up to 28C, or so...but, warmer water holds less O2, which the BB need to flourish, so get a bubbler going to aid in surface agitation/gas exchange

11 days isn't very long for a cycle to develop, all of mine have taken at least 3 weeks

Thanks, i used Seachem Prime and using the API Master test kit.

 

[Essjay]

It took me 21 days for ammonia to drop......

 

[Slaphppy7]

Thanks, i used Seachem Prime and using the API Master test kit.

to both.

Be patient, you'll get there....nothing good happens fast in this hobby

Be sure to read up on cycling here, if you haven't already: https://www.fishforums.net/threads/cycle-your-tank-a-complete-guide-for-beginners.475055/

 

[Essjay]

Alkalinity (as CaCO3) is an average of18.1 mg/L

I have just noticed this. That is very low for cycling. The bacteria need inorganic carbon ie carbonate. You can try raising KH just for cycling, the big water change at the end will reset it back to tap water levels before getting fish.
Bicarbonate of soda. Use 1 x 15 ml spoonful per 50 litres tank water. Dissolve it in a bit of tank water in a container then pour into the tank. This will raise both KH and pH. You may already have some bicarb in the kitchen, if not it's in the home baking section of the supermarket.
I would also test pH every time you test ammonia and nitrite, and if the pH starts to drop, add another dose.

Once the cycle is complete, you don't need to boost KH; the big water change will remove the bicarb and the water parameters will settle to whatever they want.

 

[tomdaven]

I have just noticed this. That is very low for cycling. The bacteria need inorganic carbon ie carbonate. You can try raising KH just for cycling, the big water change at the end will reset it back to tap water levels before getting fish.
Bicarbonate of soda. Use 1 x 15 ml spoonful per 50 litres tank water. Dissolve it in a bit of tank water in a container then pour into the tank. This will raise both KH and pH. You may already have some bicarb in the kitchen, if not it's in the home baking section of the supermarket.
I would also test pH every time you test ammonia and nitrite, and if the pH starts to drop, add another dose.

Once the cycle is complete, you don't need to boost KH; the big water change will remove the bicarb and the water parameters will settle to whatever they want.

Thanks, will add this tonight.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

I concur re the carbonate deficit. However, I would not be inclined to use baking soda. I would use a bag of crushed coral. This will work a bit slower but should not bump the pH which the baking soda will do. BTW- your 18.1 mg/l reading for GH means you have about 1 degree of KH. At least 3 dg would be better. However, if you cannot get any of the below, use the baking soda to try to get your cycle going again. This may be enough but you will have the same issue over time as the cycle naturally lowers the pH without enough carbonates and can stop entirely without them. The solution is a bag of crushed coral in the filter.

Hardening Your Water (Raising GH and/or KH)

The following measurements are approximate; use a test kit to verify you've achieved the intended results. Note that if your water is extremely soft to begin with (1 degree KH or less), you may get a drastic change in pH as the buffer is added.

To raise both GH and KH simultaneously, add calcium carbonate (CaCO3). 1/2 teaspoon per 100 liters of water will increase both the KH and GH by about 1-2 dH. Alternatively, add some sea shells, coral, limestone, marble chips, etc. to your filter.

To raise the KH without raising the GH, add sodium bicarbonate (NaHCO3), commonly known as baking soda. 1/2 teaspoon per 100 Liters raises the KH by about 1 dH. Sodium bicarbonate drives the pH towards an equilibrium value of 8.2.

If your KH had been higher at the start and the Dr. Tim's was not mishandled along the way to you, your tank should have been fully cycled in about a week. However, Dr. Tim's site suggest dosing ammonia to 2 ppm on the nitrogen scale, The API kit measures using the Total Ion scale, So, the actual reading for ammonia at 2 ppm using the nitrogen scale will read about 2.5 ppm on an API kit.

Since you got some nitrite, that means some of the ammonia would have been converted and thus the ammonia level should have dropped some. That also means 3 ppm for ammonia should never have been a reading you got.

This all tells me something is amiss. And to figure out what means more information is needed. I am in the states and I assume you are not so I will ask for metric numbers.

1. How many litres is your tank? What sort of decor is in it? Does it contain substrate? These reduce how much water a tank can hold.
2. How many drops of the ammonium chloride did you add and how often did you add it? There are 3.79 litres/gallon so you should have added 4 drops/3.79 litres of actual water in the tank, not the stated volume of the tank.
3. Did you allow for outgassing when you tested your tap pH? That is did you let the water sit out over night or did you bubble it for 10- 15 minuted before testing?
4. Did you turn out the tank lights for a day and did you shake the Bottle of One and Only well before adding it?

Here is what I believe happened based on the info provided. I think too much ammonium chloride may have been added. I am not sure how the One and Only was handled along the way nor how it was added and how the tank was prepped for it. Both could have caused the contents to be degraded or even killed off. But lets assume the bacteria were OK when you added them and so were the tank parameters except for the KH.

The fact that you got a nitrite reading but no drop in ammonia tells me something was amiss. The bottle contains both types of bacteria (ammonia and nitrite ones). It contains them in a balance such that you should never get much of a nitrite reading. This is because as much nitrite as the ammonia bacteria in the bottle can create, there are enough nitrite bacteria ready to convert it to nitrate. So I think there is more going on than just not enough KH. I think maybe there was too much ammonia added.

The bacteria in the bottle are live but essentially asleep. The ammonium chloride wakes up the ammonia ones and thsii results in nitrite. When it appears, it awakens the nitrite ones as well. So it is possible that short lag would show some nitrite, but not for long and not very much. When the ammonia goes down then you get to see nitrite. But both levels should drop pretty fast when seeding bacteria. Your ammonia level should have dropped. The one thing that could freeze the whole process is insufficient carbonates/bicarbonates in the water.

Sorrry to be so long winded, but cycling is a process that should follow a fairly predicable path. Dealing with problems is a question of figuring where it went off the path and why. This is done via testing. So the more data one has and the more accurate it is, the easier it is to figure out what is going on and to fix it.

 

[tomdaven]

I concur re the carbonate deficit. However, I would not be inclined to use baking soda. I would use a bag of crushed coral. This will work a bit slower but should not bump the pH which the baking soda will do. BTW- your 18.1 mg/l reading for GH means you have about 1 degree of KH. At least 3 dg would be better. However, if you cannot get any of the below, use the baking soda to try to get your cycle going again. This may be enough but you will have the same issue over time as the cycle naturally lowers the pH without enough carbonates and can stop entirely without them. The solution is a bag of crushed coral in the filter.

Thanks,
I've added the Bicarbonate of soda.

1. How many litres is your tank? What sort of decor is in it? Does it contain substrate? These reduce how much water a tank can hold.

Tanks is 54 litres, with 6 fake plants and one fake plastic object. Substrate is black polished style stone.

2. How many drops of the ammonium chloride did you add and how often did you add it? There are 3.79 litres/gallon so you should have added 4 drops/3.79 litres of actual water in the tank, not the stated volume of the tank.

I added 2.7 ml Ammonia Chloride on the first day and days 3 and 6 ( see below - I'm a fool!)

3. Did you allow for outgassing when you tested your tap pH? That is did you let the water sit out over night or did you bubble it for 10- 15 minuted before testing?
No will try this tonight.

4. Did you turn out the tank lights for a day and did you shake the Bottle of One and Only well before adding it?

Tank lights have been off the whole cycle. I added the whole bottle of One and Only and rinsed it out with the tank water.

Having read your update i've realised a massive error on my part.
The Dr Tim instructions state add Ammonia on day 3 and 6, as long as the Ammonia values are not above 5ppm.
I've now noticed that it also states not to add any more Ammonia after day 1 until the Ammonia drops below 2ppm. I completely missed this (although the two instructions contradict each other).

I added Ammonia on Days 1, 3 and 6 as per the instruction, which resulted in the reading of 3ppm each time. Obviously i now realise i shouldn't of added any more after day 1.

What do you suggest? Add more bacteria maybe along with a partial water change, or just wait having added the Bicarbonate.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Years back I exchanged emails with Dr. Hovanec about cycling and One and Only. I based the Fishless cycling article here on his method. I made it fail=safe and simpler. My method makes it impossible for ammonia or nitrite to get high enough to stall a cycle.

I can make a few more observations now. Your dosing of ammonia was correct. But that should never have produce more than about 2.5 ppm of ammonia. Then we pretty much know low carbonates caused the stall. How often you added the ammonia was a problem as you already realized. Combined with the elack of carbonates it let the ammonia build.

I would wait a day and test. Hopefully you tested before adding the Bicarb. That way your next test in 24 hours from adding it will show in what direction, if any, things are moving. And that will indicate what the next move should be.

I have read a lot of research re the bacteria. Nirmally, when the essential things they need disappear, they go dormant. I know this is true if ammonia/nitrite are gone and if oxygen is gone and I assume if inorganic carbon is gone, they will also. When what they need is again available they wake up and go back to work. So, I am hoping most of the bacteria you added is still viable.

it is OK to have the tank light on 24 hours after adding the bacteria if you want it on. You only need to give the bacteria time to settle in the filter and substrate and they are out of direct light.

It is too late, but here is what I would have told you to do had I seen your answers before you added the bicarb,

1. Change 50% or the water and dechlor for the added 50% only. Wait about 5 and no more than 10 minutes and test for ammonia and nitrite and record both. Also, if you have the kits test for the pH and KH both before and after adding the Bicarb. record all the results.

2. You want the ammonia level on the tank to be 2.5 - 3 ppm after the water change. If it is more you will have to change more water until it is. However, if the ammonia is under the 2.5 -3.0 range, you will have to add more Ammonium Cloride to bring it there.

3. It doesn't make sense to test again until 24 hours have past if your dechlor also detoxifies ammonia. If so it will give inaccurate readings. Test ammonia first. It should have gone down if the bacteria are still there in adequate numbers. If the ammonia has not dropped, the nitrite should not have risen either.

4. Basically, you should then be able to follow Dr. Tim's directions. Note, the bacteria will not die or go dormant if tou are a bit slow to add or you are a bit light on the amount. The danger is in the opposite direction.

Your proper ammonia dose is what you did the first time. Each time you add that during the cycle you will get a lower ammonia reading. that is what you want. When he states not to let the ammonia or nitrite get above 5 ppm, that is using the nitrogen scale. Using the Total Ion scale thosenumbers are 6.4 ppm for ammonia and 16.4 ppm for nitrite. An API test kit stops at 5 ppm for nitrite so one then has to do diluted testing for this.

The method of fishless cycling here is designed to make unneccesary to do diluted testing. To get ammonia that high one has to add too much and/or add it too often. And that in turn can spike nitrite too high as well. This is why in the method here for traditional fishless cycling or in Dr. Tim's method for cycling using One and Only, they are designed to prevent either ammonia or nitrite from being able to build up to those levels.

I will try to keep an eye on this thread and if you have questions I will answer in time.